There are no illegal immigrants in America - Page 17

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

We THE people of the United States. It's very clear that it refers to the people of the United States....aka the people living inside the United States.

You are so full of crap - How many times have YOU stated "they meant EXACTLY what they said"? If they menat "the people living in the US" they would have said that. Since they didn't specifically say "the people living in the US", then they DID NOT MEAN THAT. How thick are you?

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

If a uniform rule of naturalization states that a felon can't be naturalized, it does not mean they can't become an immigrant.

...and an illegal one at that.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:46 PM

They did say that. We THE PEOPLE of the United States refers to the people in the United States. That's what it says.

Let me make it more clear for you. Before there was a United States, there were only people. They weren't citizens, they were just people living in America. In the Declaration of Independence, the founders said that "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". Government gets its powers from the people who are governed. Government may not have any powers that individuals do not have without government.

Since all of the people living within the borders of the United States are subject to the Constitutionally valid laws of the United States, they are "governed" by the U.S. Government. Not some people....ALL people.

The U.S. Government derives its powers from THE PEOPLE who are governed by the U.S. Government, and yes this includes non-citizens and undocumented immigrants. They are also subject to all of the laws of the United States which do not contradict the Constitution (such as immigration laws). If they commit murder, they go to jail. If they steal, they go to jail, etc.

They are absolutely part of WE THE PEOPLE.

Undertoad · 01-02-2008, 10:48 PM

An immigrant would surely be a "person of France living in the United States". An immigrant wouldn't describe themselves as a person of the United States. He's got you dead to rights, so to speak.

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

They did say that. We THE PEOPLE of the United States refers to the people in the United States. That's what it says.

no it refers to the people OF the US not in. It is very clear. No playing with this one. If the meant "in" they would have said "in". The two words (in & of) have very different meanings. By your own admission they meant exactly what they wrote - "of "
At best, it is up for interpretation which is what we are doing now and you still lose because everything else is therefore up for interpretation as well.

You are too smart a guy to not see the reality right in front of you.

regular.joe · 01-02-2008, 10:55 PM

It depends on what your definition of of is.

classicman · 01-02-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe

It depends on what your definition of of is.

Take a look at any dictionary and defining the word "of" is never "the"
Although we can discuss and debate it. I am wiiling to do that. That still proves the point of "interpretation"

Radar · 01-02-2008, 10:58 PM

It's not up for interpretation. It means we the people of the united states.

You keep highlighting the word "of" as though that means something special when it does not. The people who are governed by the United States are THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES. This is where the government drives its powers.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

An immigrant would surely be a "person of France living in the United States". An immigrant wouldn't describe themselves as a person of the United States. He's got you dead to rights, so to speak.

Immigrants are those who live here. If a French immigrant lives in America and he travels to Brazil and someone asks where he is here from, he will say he is in Brazil FROM the United States. He is Pierre OF Idaho. Nothing needs to be interpreted and nothing is vague no matter how much you try to make it so.

Undertoad · 01-02-2008, 11:01 PM

It derives its powers from being elected by... the people of the United States. The citizens, the voters.

classicman · 01-02-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

It's not up for interpretation. It means we the people of the united states.

You keep highlighting the word "of" as though that means something special when it does not. The people who are governed by the United States are THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES. This is where the government drives its powers.

Radar, That is not even worthy of a response. You are trying to switch the argument to the derrivation of power and to governance.

I would love to debate that with you right after we finish up this one, if you please. One thing at a time.
Please agree that:
1) the writers meant exactly what they wrote
(you have already done this numerous times) and
2) "of" is not the same as "the"

Radar · 01-02-2008, 11:05 PM

Wrong. It derives its powers from the CONSENT of the governed....the permission of the people. It exercises those powers through people becoming elected.

classicman · 01-02-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

Immigrants are those who live here. If a French immigrant lives in America and he travels to Brazil and someone asks where he is here from, he will say he is in Brazil FROM the United States. He is Pierre OF Idaho. Nothing needs to be interpreted and nothing is vague no matter how much you try to make it so.

Depends on if he is a legal or illegal immigrant.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Radar, That is not even worthy of a response. You are trying to switch the argument to the derrivit4ion of power and to governance.

I would love to debate that with you rifght after we finish up this one.
Plese agree that:
1) the writers meant exactly what they wrote
(you have already done this numerous times) and
2) "of" is not the same as "the"

1. The writers mean exactly what they wrote, and it's not vague, ambiguous, or in need of "interpretation".

2. The people OF the United States refers to all of the people who are governed by the United States. All of them are OF the United States because the United States derives its powers from their consent.

Radar · 01-02-2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Depends on if he is a legal or illegal immigrant.

There is no difference in America since the Federal government isn't granted any powers over immigration by the U.S. Constitution.

01-02-2008, 10:46 PM	#243
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	They did say that. We THE PEOPLE of the United States refers to the people in the United States. That's what it says. Let me make it more clear for you. Before there was a United States, there were only people. They weren't citizens, they were just people living in America. In the Declaration of Independence, the founders said that "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". Government gets its powers from the people who are governed. Government may not have any powers that individuals do not have without government. Since all of the people living within the borders of the United States are subject to the Constitutionally valid laws of the United States, they are "governed" by the U.S. Government. Not some people....ALL people. The U.S. Government derives its powers from THE PEOPLE who are governed by the U.S. Government, and yes this includes non-citizens and undocumented immigrants. They are also subject to all of the laws of the United States which do not contradict the Constitution (such as immigration laws). If they commit murder, they go to jail. If they steal, they go to jail, etc. They are absolutely part of WE THE PEOPLE. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin Last edited by Radar; 01-02-2008 at 10:51 PM.

01-02-2008, 10:55 PM	#246
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	It depends on what your definition of of is. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

01-02-2008, 10:58 PM	#248
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	It's not up for interpretation. It means we the people of the united states. You keep highlighting the word "of" as though that means something special when it does not. The people who are governed by the United States are THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES. This is where the government drives its powers. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

01-02-2008, 11:05 PM	#252
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Wrong. It derives its powers from the CONSENT of the governed....the permission of the people. It exercises those powers through people becoming elected. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

01-02-2008, 10:48 PM	#244
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	An immigrant would surely be a "person of France living in the United States". An immigrant wouldn't describe themselves as a person of the United States. He's got you dead to rights, so to speak.

01-02-2008, 11:01 PM	#250
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It derives its powers from being elected by... the people of the United States. The citizens, the voters.

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