Torture memos

[TheMercenary]

Who is Tw?

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

All posters should keep in mind that tw has never expressed the least interest in the free societies winning out over the slavemaking ones. Tw just can't think about human liberty, nor apparently give it its proper value. Tw really doesn't want totalitarianism to lose, anywhere. Instead, it's "we're so awful, because we're trying to win."

Can anyone show otherwise?

I am one who believes that if the US signs international treaties (Geneva, UNCAT) that define and set limits on torture and/or cruel and unusual punishment, then the US should live up to those treaty obligations or withdraw from the treaty (and become a rogue state like those countries that refused to sign -- Iran, Myanmar, North Korea, Zimbabwe)

Or at the very least, the executive branch should submit proposed changes in policy to the legislature (even if only in closed session to protect national security) rather than act unilaterally in secret and counter to the advice and recommendations of both the DoJ and CIA Inspectors General.

Checks and balances to limit abuses of power.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Geez Redux, you sound like my father...



and his father,
and his father,
and his father,
and his father,
and his father.

[sugarpop]

When we, the free societies, are the ones using those methods (torture) on the slavemaking ones, how does that make us "better?" I imagine to the people of those countries, it makes us just as bad, only in a different way.

[lookout123]

Better is subjective. I don't really care if you think it is better or worse so long as we allow for effectiveness.

[sugarpop]

Torture has never been effective. We KNOW that. It didn't work during the inquisitions, and it doesn't work now. people will tell you whatever they think you want to hear just to make it stop. It is extremely unreliable.

[lookout123]

You're correct, torture is not effective. Pulling someone's fingernails out is just as likely to produce lies as truth. The things described above aren't torture. They're discomfort. Keeping someone awake for days tends to screw with their determination. Sitting in uncomfortable temperatures can do the same. Anything that causes a person to lose focus can be useful in getting information. That information shouldn't be immediately believed without some verification, but it certainly is a start.

Ask any law enforcement officer.

[classicman]

I'd like to see the reports on what was gained, how effective or what was potentially stopped by the info gleaned. If this administration is going to release the info on what was done, why not what was gained, if anything from it? Right now we only have 1/2 the story. An obviously slanted one at that. This has nothing to do with whether we should or shouldn't, just that we don't have all the facts yet.

[Undertoad]

That is the subject of a WaPo editorial this morning, which details some of what was actually learned via enhanced techniques, one point of which I mentioned yesterday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042002818.html

Critics claim that enhanced techniques do not produce good intelligence because people will say anything to get the techniques to stop. But the memos note that, "as Abu Zubaydah himself explained with respect to enhanced techniques, 'brothers who are captured and interrogated are permitted by Allah to provide information when they believe they have reached the limit of their ability to withhold it in the face of psychological and physical hardship." In other words, the terrorists are called by their faith to resist as far as they can -- and once they have done so, they are free to tell everything they know.

[classicman]

The CIA's Questioning Worked

President Obama declared that the techniques used to question captured terrorists "did not make us safer." This is patently false. The proof is in the memos Obama made public -- in sections that have gone virtually unreported in the media.

Why aren't they getting reported????

Because they know that if the public could see the details of the techniques side by side with evidence that the program saved American lives, the vast majority would support continuing it.

" Once the techniques were applied, "interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates."

Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower. "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' "without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.

Hmm

CIA Director Leon Panetta said during his confirmation hearings that even the Obama administration might use some of the enhanced techniques in a "ticking time bomb" scenario.
President Obama's decision to release these documents is one of the most dangerous and irresponsible acts ever by an American president during a time of war -- and Americans may die as a result.

Excellent article UT.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by lookout123

You're correct, torture is not effective. Pulling someone's fingernails out is just as likely to produce lies as truth. The things described above aren't torture. They're discomfort. Keeping someone awake for days tends to screw with their determination. Sitting in uncomfortable temperatures can do the same. Anything that causes a person to lose focus can be useful in getting information. That information shouldn't be immediately believed without some verification, but it certainly is a start.

Ask any law enforcement officer.

SOME of the things described most definitely ARE torture, according to the Geneva Conventions and also our own military laws.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

The CIA's Questioning Worked

Why aren't they getting reported????



Hmm


Excellent article UT.

That information was already out in the public domain. Everyone knew it, but some of the people here wouldn't believe until they saw proof. Well, now you have proof. I think it is imperative that the citizens of this country know what the ones in power are doing. Otherwise, we don't have a free society.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

That information was already out in the public domain. Everyone knew it, but some of the people here wouldn't believe until they saw proof. Well, now you have proof. I think it is imperative that the citizens of this country know what the ones in power are doing. Otherwise, we don't have a free society.

Any government that releases all it's secrets will not be around for very long. Regardless of what kind of gov it is.

Originally Posted by lookout123

You're correct, torture is not effective. Pulling someone's fingernails out is just as likely to produce lies as truth. The things described above aren't torture. They're discomfort. Keeping someone awake for days tends to screw with their determination. Sitting in uncomfortable temperatures can do the same. Anything that causes a person to lose focus can be useful in getting information. That information shouldn't be immediately believed without some verification, but it certainly is a start.

Ask any law enforcement officer.

Hell, ask John McCain.

After prolonged torture and cruel and degrading treatment, he lost focus and gave information.

He named names....the Green Bay Packer offensive line.

He named cities in Vietnam.....cities that were not targets of opportunity.

Originally Posted by classicman

The CIA's Questioning Worked

Excellent article UT.

It is not an article, but an editorial by Bush's speechwriter so consider the spin.

Where is the verifiable information of stopping a "second wave attack on LA " when it has been reported just as much by other sources that no such wave was a serious threat. The FBI also walked away from the waterboarding of the two "big fish" when they thought the information was not credible.

[Undertoad]

it has been reported that no such wave was a serious threat

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