Torture memos

[tw]

Originally Posted by Jill

I wonder if John McCain thinks he was tortured. Perhaps he was just put in "stress positions".

McCain considers himself tortured. However, according to later American redefinition of torture, McCain was not tortured.

These early recommendations morphed into definitions that said if the act does not leave permanent organ damage, then it is not torture. IOW, according to Gonzales rewrite, if skin layers were slowly removed, that was not torture because permanent organ damage did not result.

Consider the absurdity of this memo. First, the author did no research. It basically says you told us this and you plan to do that. Therefore these actions are acceptable.

Second, torture is being defined only because one man must have information: Abu Zubaydah. He must be severely interrogated because he trained the operatives for a1 Qaeda, the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, and terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan, was al Qaeda’s Deputy Camp Commander for training camps, personally approved selection and graduation of terrorists in 1999 and 2000, no one went in or out of Peshawar, Pakistan without his knowledge and approval, and he was Al Qaeda’s communication and coordinator for all international contacts including counterintelligence.

In short, Zubaydah was Superman and was not telling us all these things he *must* know. Therefore rules must be rewritten to extract information. Theory was that interrogation methods (that had worked best for hundreds of years and that were so successful even during WWII) were not sufficient. So rules must be rewritten. Forget that maybe he really did not know all this stuff.

Rules were changed to instill fear and pain. But these rule changes were OK because they did not create pain. How absurd.

Interrogation without pain is why the FBI broke the entire 1993 WTC bombing and the USS Cole bombing. Pain and fear was not used. Instead, intelligent interrogation causes the targets to talk with honesty. But that obviously cannot work on Superman. So we needed violence legitimized.

Slam him against a fake wall. He will be carefully wrapped in cloth first to not be harmed. Sound of crashing into the fake wall will cause so much fear as to cause him to tell all? Nonsense. Eventually, the fake wall was replaced by concrete. And then when someone noted slamming against a concrete wall was torture, then the wall was covered by a sheet of plywood. Plywood would cushion the blow. Examples of how these techniques morphed into acceptable interrogation methods years later. After all, the theory behind these methods demand that pain be inflicted.

Torture had to be expanded because Superman and others did not give up the facts. Why? Because there were no Al Qaeda sleeper cells, no Saddam WMDs. And no international Al Qaeda hiding all over the world waiting under our beds to kill us all. But these new interrogation methods had to be approved BECAUSE enemies MUST be hiding everywhere to kill us all. We knew these threats must exist. Therefore well proven interrogation without torture must be wrong. Clearly the enemy must be massing to kill us all. So violence must be approved.

Myths and wild speculation (created because the powers that be were wacko extremists) justified violence only because terrorists could not tell us what we wanted to hear. Meanwhile, Indonesia kept these same Americans away from Nasir Abbas because he knew so much about Jemaah Islamiya (who did the 2002 Bali bombing). Despite myths and lies promoted in America, Jemaah Islamiya was not Al Qaeda. Nasir Abbas gave up the entire Jemaah Islamiya network BECAUSE he was not tortured. See Why does America need Secret Prisons? . But then what the Indonesians did is also how professional interrogators did it in WWII, 1993 WTC bombing, and the USS Cole. See the Washington Post of 6 Oct 2007:
Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII
Interrogators Fought 'Battle of Wits'

Indonesia needed to keep Americans away from Nasir Abbas because American methods of violence would have poisoned the well.

The memo approves of methods that do no pain when the new interrogation method required pain - because he was Superman. No wonder a fake wall was quickly replaced with a concrete one. Entire concept of interrogation by intimidation required inflicting pain – also called torture. The Spanish Inquisition was alive and well – and did not use cushy pillows as some (and Monty Python) claimed. This memo shows how torture was first approved and why it only got worse - even killing an Iraqi General in Abu Ghriad because he would not tell us where Saddam's WMDs were hidden.

According to the newer American definitions of torture, McCain was not tortured. Beheading is torture because it created permenant organ damage.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by tw

These early recommendations morphed into definitions that said if the act does not leave permanent organ damage, then it is not torture. IOW, according to Gonzales rewrite, if skin layers were slowly removed, that was not torture because permanent organ damage did not result. . .

What is the largest organ of the human body?












I'll give everyone a minute to think about it.

Your Skin: The Largest Organ of the Human Body

The skin is the largest organ of the human body. In the average adult it covers about 3000 square inches and weighs around six pounds, which is nearly twice the weight of the human brain or liver. The skin receives about one third of the blood that circulates through the body. It’s rugged, flexible and practically waterproof. The skin can regenerate and repair itself under most conditions. The skin also helps in the dissipation of sweat. The skin and its appendages are known as the integumentary system.

. . .

Just more evidence of the truly frightening thing about these anti-science, know-nothing fucktards being in power.

[jinx]

So do you think dermal abrasion is torture?

[tw]

Originally Posted by jinx

So do you think dermal abrasion is torture?

Dermal abrasion does not inflict pain. Torture is about pain to make him talk. Pealing skin in a painful manner so that skin grows back was (by their rewritten definition) not torture. Only fools believe pain gets useful intelligence. Which is why terrorists were planning attacks even on the Golden Gate Bridge and Newark’s Prudential Building?

How curious. They never found anybody planning those attacks - which is what happens when torture replaced intelligent interrogation.

If America had no secret CIA torture chambers all over the world, then why did Obama order them closed? Many who advocated torture also lied about secret CIA concentration camps. And still have problems admitting that some 600 of the 800 imprisoned in Guantanamo have been released – guilty of nothing. More *honesty* routinely found among those who also advocated torture – and even denied it was torture.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by jinx

So do you think dermal abrasion is torture?

Only if you go to a dermal abrasion clinic and allow them to do it to you without protest.

Wait, that would be S&M.