Science, Religion, and the Surrounding Confusion. - Page 9

classicman · 07-30-2008, 08:57 PM

they're outdated

DanaC · 07-30-2008, 09:00 PM

In what way classicman?

classicman · 07-30-2008, 09:08 PM

They seem to create more problems than they solve. They drive up the costs of everything and make products virtually non-competitive in a world economy.

Aliantha · 07-30-2008, 09:13 PM

Is that because the cost of manufacturing products rises when workers ask to be paid enough money on which to live?

classicman · 07-31-2008, 09:02 AM

Here it is all to common that the "Union system" is being abused. I am not against a fair wage and don't intend to say that I have a better plan, but I've heard too many stories to the contrary.

Shawnee123 · 07-31-2008, 10:00 AM

While we watch GM plants shut down all the time. The industry can't keep up with 40 dollar an hour wages. And, I know many people who have worked in these union high-paying shops and many have said they really don't work very hard. Sometimes they play cards.

The Honda plants around here have a much better model, imho. They pay really good wages (25/hour is typical), have no union, the employees work their butts off, and everyone is happy. They tend to not need lay-offs and shutdowns.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-02-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

snip~ but I've heard too many stories to the contrary.

The stories are never a complete picture, only the highlights, that are cherry picked, to make the storytellers point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

While we watch GM plants shut down all the time. The industry can't keep up with 40 dollar an hour wages. And, I know many people who have worked in these union high-paying shops and many have said they really don't work very hard. Sometimes they play cards.

The Honda plants around here have a much better model, imho. They pay really good wages (25/hour is typical), have no union, the employees work their butts off, and everyone is happy. They tend to not need lay-offs and shutdowns.

Which proves that American workers are willing to return a days work for a fair wage. If they are not working, ie playing cards, then it's definitely a management problem.

classicman · 08-02-2008, 11:39 AM

...and as we all know 85% of all problems...

classicman · 08-02-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The stories are never a complete picture, only the highlights, that are cherry picked, to make the storytellers point.

True, but I've heard them from both sides and the topic of conversation was not about this subject. Workers being paid $30 an hour versus $30 a month put are at a severe disadvantage in a world economy.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-02-2008, 12:54 PM

Trained, equipped and motivated, $30/hr workers, can certainly compete with $3/hr unskilled workers, by being more productive and producing better quality.

There is no union shop where a bum can't be terminated for not doing their job... none.
There's always contract language that requires management to follow a set procedure, to prevent termination at the whim of a supervisor, to make room for the wife's nephew, or without just cause.
You may not like him, but you can't fire him if he's doing his job properly.

I have, however, seen too many cases of terminated minorities/handicapped, going to the Labor Board (government) claiming prejudice, then being reinstated when in fact they were a bum. This is not an option for the rest of us.

morethanpretty · 08-02-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Well I don't know what miktrees' point was, but I thought he was having a bit of a joke actually.

I agree, I think you might've overreacted a bit, but if your experience with agnosticism has been negative that is understandable. Agnostic is a pretty general term though, most agnostics seem to have different reasons for and different resulting beliefs. Generally we just believe in "the possibility of something else." I'm not hedging my bets, I just have hope. Maybe its selfish or silly, but I don't want this lifetime to be my only one, there is so much I won't get to experience. So hopefully there is reincarnation, or at least a super awesome heaven. Like you've said though, we haven't found the evidence for it, doesn't mean it isn't there though. Perhaps we just haven't looked in the right place (try that rock over there!) or our minds still just can't comprehend it. I don't know of any agnostics who try and convert or push their ideals onto others, so why let it bother you? I don't care what you do as long as you don't insult me (which you did unintentionally so no harm really), or try and make me like you. Its just all about the hope for me.

regular.joe · 08-02-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

(which you did unintentionally so no harm really)

If someone gives you a gift and you don't accept it, whose gift is it?

Cicero · 08-02-2008, 06:28 PM

I thought that they shut down the GM plants for trucks to make fuel efficient cars. I didn't know it was a Union thing.

miketrees · 08-03-2008, 06:42 AM

Crikey DanaC you have done me cold.
How did you know I thought Atheists were less intelligent than Agnostics.
I guess you probably also know I think believers are dull non thinking cop outs.

You see its thing like this (your mind reading ability ) that keep me Agnostic

DanaC · 08-03-2008, 06:44 AM

Quote:

How did you know I thought Atheists were less intelligent than Agnostics.

Tell me where I said that.

07-30-2008, 08:57 PM	#121
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	they're outdated __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

07-30-2008, 09:08 PM	#123
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	They seem to create more problems than they solve. They drive up the costs of everything and make products virtually non-competitive in a world economy. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

07-30-2008, 09:13 PM	#124
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Is that because the cost of manufacturing products rises when workers ask to be paid enough money on which to live? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

07-31-2008, 09:02 AM	#125
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Here it is all to common that the "Union system" is being abused. I am not against a fair wage and don't intend to say that I have a better plan, but I've heard too many stories to the contrary. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

07-31-2008, 10:00 AM	#126
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	While we watch GM plants shut down all the time. The industry can't keep up with 40 dollar an hour wages. And, I know many people who have worked in these union high-paying shops and many have said they really don't work very hard. Sometimes they play cards. The Honda plants around here have a much better model, imho. They pay really good wages (25/hour is typical), have no union, the employees work their butts off, and everyone is happy. They tend to not need lay-offs and shutdowns. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

07-30-2008, 09:00 PM	#122
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	In what way classicman?

08-02-2008, 11:39 AM	#128
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	...and as we all know 85% of all problems... __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

08-02-2008, 12:54 PM	#130
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Trained, equipped and motivated, $30/hr workers, can certainly compete with $3/hr unskilled workers, by being more productive and producing better quality. There is no union shop where a bum can't be terminated for not doing their job... none. There's always contract language that requires management to follow a set procedure, to prevent termination at the whim of a supervisor, to make room for the wife's nephew, or without just cause. You may not like him, but you can't fire him if he's doing his job properly. I have, however, seen too many cases of terminated minorities/handicapped, going to the Labor Board (government) claiming prejudice, then being reinstated when in fact they were a bum. This is not an option for the rest of us. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-02-2008, 06:28 PM	#133
Cicero Looking forward to open mic night. Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Mexico Posts: 5,148	I thought that they shut down the GM plants for trucks to make fuel efficient cars. I didn't know it was a Union thing. __________________ Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.- Carl Jung

08-03-2008, 06:42 AM	#134
miketrees Regulator of Squalor Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 37	Crikey DanaC you have done me cold. How did you know I thought Atheists were less intelligent than Agnostics. I guess you probably also know I think believers are dull non thinking cop outs. You see its thing like this (your mind reading ability ) that keep me Agnostic

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