American Hip Hop

[Flint]

Although this may be a bit reductionist, coming from a perspective of music as art, but in one sense it is perfectly natural that anyone who actually plays a musical instrument would expect the definition of music to consist of more than button-pushing and braggadacio. I'll just throw that out there. On the other hand, electronic forms of music can be thought of as a sonic sculpture, using different tools as a means of expression. Then, you have to wonder: what is being expressed? That comes down to a matter of taste. Some people might say Prog Rock expresses nothing more than "Hey, listen to us, we're playing in three different time signatures simultaneously" . . . Of course I wouldn't say that because I believe that music actually contains musicians displaying musicianship. Which is, of course, completely subjective.

[freshnesschronic]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I knew the hate would come.... People should give the music you like a chance, but also accept you telling them to shut the fuck up, heavy metal is deranged and all men objectify women - hey, it's okay, it's business.

Meh - it's not a genre I'm interested in so I'll stfu and go & be objectified somewhere else.

I think you've mistaken me. The "stfu" was to the people who were about to say "Ludacris, social rapper?" because he does do social rap but they haven't listened to him enough to find it.

And yes, I think metal is deranged, just like Ibram calls rap shit. Eye for an eye.

And what I was saying about women is it's not just black media that objectifies women--every culture on earth has exploited them from the beginning. Need I mention Playboy? And the business part is that yes-it makes money, the objectifying of women does make money, therefore it will keep on happening.

[DanaC]

As with pretty much every other genre, there's rap I like and there's rap I don't like. Eminem, dre and the Blackeyed Peas I think produce music well worthy of the name art. There's also rap and hip-hop from outside of the States pushing the envelope and doing exciting stuff. Some of the English artists are very interestig. Whether they appeal to an American hip-hop fan as much as they appeal to an English hip-hop fan, that I don't know. They're quite different in tone and style to their American counterparts.

I know some Britons will argue British hip hop is superior but NOPE! You guys are wrong, and that's not just my Ameri-centric attitude, but if you guys knew the hip hop legends and the kids we've produced in the states and heard some of the actual MUSIC and beats and the edgy progressions that make hip hop so easy to recognize and the enormous variety of sounds and instruments implemented

I wouldn't say British hip hop is superior....just different. Some of it is just pale imitation of the American style but some of it is very different, draws from slightly different cultural mixes and brings in a different musical pallette.

[Undertoad]

British dance/electronica/trip hop is superior.

Originally Posted by freshnesschronic

Then you should listen to Talib Kweli, Common, KRS-One, Mos Def, Kanye West, K-Os, Ludacris (wait wait, listen to his song Runaway Love then stfu), Nas, B.I.G. and Tupac (they were alive in 97 which is included in this 10 year span that seems to you like "shit"), Outlandish, Eminem (when he's serious he's an amazing rapper), Roscoe P Coldchain, Slum Village, Anthony Hamilton, Black Eyed Peas, Dr. Dre (Chronic 2001) and The Game. Those are all examples of good ass social rap about change in society and not mainstream 50 cent which might include drinking, partying, sex, rims, ice, and thugging. But in a way you have to respect 50 because what he raps about he did go through, like when he talks about his life on the street you can't get more real than that.

The difference is 50 glamorizes negativity and Ice T glorifies positive change from what he went through. I am not against those who came from the street, just what some do with it.

[Elspode]

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

CHARLESTON, S.C. - White students at Tarleton State University in Texas hold a party in which they dress in gang gear and drink malt liquor from paper bags. A white Clemson University student attends a bash in blackface over the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend. A fraternity at Johns Hopkins University invites partygoers to wear "bling bling" grills, or shiny metal caps on their teeth.

From Connecticut to Colorado, "gangsta" theme parties thrown by whites are drawing the ire of college officials and heated complaints from black and white students who say the antics conjure the worst racial stereotypes.

University officials, the NAACP and others have condemned the parties as insulting and inexcusable under any circumstances. At the same time, some black academics said they were not surprised, given the popularity of rap music among inner-city blacks and well-to-do suburban whites alike.

The white students, they said, were mimicking the kind of outlaw posturing that blacks themselves engage in in rap videos. They suggest the white students ended up crossing the same line that says it is OK for blacks to call each other "------," but not all right for whites to do it.

Whites often don't realize their actions are offensive because they are imitating behavior celebrated in music and seen on television, said Venise Berry, an associate professor of journalism at the University of Iowa who has researched rap music and popular culture.

"The segment of rap music that is glamorized and popularized by the media is gangsta rap," said Berry, who is black. "It has become an image that is normalized in our society. That to me explains clearly why they don't see it as wrong."

At an off-campus "Bullets and Bubbly" party thrown by University of Connecticut School of Law students in January, pictures showed students wearing baggy jeans, puffy jackets and holding fake machine guns.

The University of Colorado's Ski and Snowboard Club advertised a "gangsta party" in September, with fliers featuring rappers and fake bullet holes. The theme was dropped after complaints, but some students, who didn't get the message, showed up in gangsta garb, hoping to win prizes.

Often such parties go unnoticed outside campuses until students post pictures on Facebook.com and other Web sites. That's how images of the Clemson party surfaced this week. One student wore blackface; another white student put padding in her pants to make her rear end look bigger.

Harold Hughes, a black fraternity member at Clemson whose frat brothers attended the party, said white students "see this on MTV and BET they think it's cool to portray hip hop culture." Hughes said he found it especially offensive that the party was held over a holiday created to honor the slain civil rights leader.

Many white Clemson students said they did not believe the party was held to intentionally offend blacks, and after news of the party reached beyond the campus, organizers issued an unsigned letter of apology.

Still, school officials are investigating, and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People said the party was not harmless fun.

"We once lynched African-Americans as good fun and humor," said Lonnie Randolph, president of the South Carolina chapter of the NAACP.

Clemson President James Barker said he was "appalled, angered and disappointed" by the party.

"If you don't understand why this is harmful to the community, then you need to start asking questions and learn," Kurt Strasser, the interim dean of the UConn School of Law, told faculty, staff and students at a meeting last week to discuss the party there.

One hip hop insider, Chris Conners, programing director at Columbia radio station WHXT HOT 103.9, said he has no problem with whites imitating certain aspects of black culture — driving cars with flashy rims, for example. But he said students who put on blackface or padded their rear ends crossed the line.

"They weren't really celebrating hip hop culture. They were making fun of African Americans, and that's what really concerns me," he said.'

James Johnson, a black psychology professor at the University of North Carolina-Wilmington who has researched racial attitudes and teaches a seminar on race and prejudice, said he is more discouraged by the rap performers who perpetuate stereotypes than by the "clueless kids" who imitate them.

"In the civil rights movement, you didn't have blacks who called themselves `-------' and who called their women `bitches' and `whores' and who glorified being violent and being thugs," he said. "Now these white kids are kind of confused."

These incidents come at a time racial tolerance on college campuses is perceived to be steadily improving. But the truth may be more complicated.

A University of Dayton sociologist who analyzed journals kept by 626 white college students found the students behaved substantially differently when they were in the company of other whites than when they were with other races.

When the students, who were asked to record their interactions with other people, were alone with other white students, racial stereotypes and racist language were surprisingly common, researcher Leslie Picca found. One student reported hearing the "n-word" among white students 27 times in a single day.

The results suggest white students have little sense of shame about racial insults and stereotyping and treat them as simply a part of the culture.

"This is a new generation who grew up watching `The Cosby Show,'" Picca said. "They have the belief that racism isn't a problem anymore so the words they use and the jokes they tell aren't racist."

Picca said she found it "heartbreaking" to see so many well-educated students perpetuating the stereotypes.

What I find heartbreaking is that anyone would defend aggression, misogyny and lawlessness as an even remotely valid cultural expression. Act like an ass, and people are going to parody you. It doesn't matter what race you are. Gangsta posing is crap, encouraging drug use, violence and illegal activities as an acceptable way of life. The way I see it, it is a way of death. To suggest that this sociological aberration is in any way exempt from parody and mocking, simply because its practitioners are members of a minority group, is laughable.

I do think that the kids who blacked their faces crossed the line. I'm not quite certain about the big butt costumes, though. Now, if these honky kids start dressing up in blackface, wearing business suits, and calling themselves Johnny Cochran or Obama Barak, then they've gone too far, but making fun of such an obviously laughable thing shouldn't get anyone's panties in a wad.

I agree with Professor James Johnson, quoted in the article, who basically says that the crews acting the gangsta pose are perpetuating stereotypes, to their own detriment.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Elspode

What I find heartbreaking is that anyone would defend aggression, misogyny and lawlessness as an even remotely valid cultural expression. Act like an ass, and people are going to parody you. It doesn't matter what race you are. Gangsta posing is crap, encouraging drug use, violence and illegal activities as an acceptable way of life. The way I see it, it is a way of death. To suggest that this sociological aberration is in any way exempt from parody and mocking, simply because its practitioners are members of a minority group, is laughable.

I totally with you there. I wonder if white students had held a Trailer Trash Party would it also have been condemned? Is it only wrong to mock a stereotyped way of life if you are crossing skin colour lines?

"They weren't really celebrating hip hop culture. They were making fun of African Americans, and that's what really concerns me," he said.'

I agree that the majority of the party-goers probably weren't celebrating hip-hop culture, but were making fun of it. I don't see why that is wrong - the outward trappings can stand mockery and in my opinion deserve it. I also don't believe that making fun of the gangsta culture is making fun of African Americans (although I'm also wary of the padded butt part).

As an aside, I was walking in behind a woman the other day. I was admiring the way she has squeezed her backside into her trousers and thinking if mine was that round I wouldn't mind what size it was either. As I came closer I could hear what she had on her walkman/ iPod and I don't know why but it really surprised me. It was the usual business - something about I'll throw her down on the bed and take what I want etc (wish I could remember - the words were quite clear). I can understand listening to it on the radio, or at a party, but to walk into work (as a woman) with that in your ears.... I just don't get it.

[Elspode]

...and she'll probably be the first one to claim sexual discrimination if she gets half a chance.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Elspode

...and she'll probably be the first one to claim sexual discrimination if she gets half a chance.

Well she's constantly bombarding herself with the idea that she's living in a hostile environment. I swear, people submerge themselves in these commercial entertainment sources, and then complain about the world they think they're living in. Just fucking unplug the shit, unplug your fucking TV (for example), and INSTANTLY things change, you feel better.

[cowhead]

oops... didn't read this page... posted to quickly.. never mind. although.. this is one reason I really like the comedian Carlos Mencia.. at first I thought "oh great, a hispanic version of chappelle.. oh boy! more white bashing!" but decided to give it a bit of a chance.. and the man is hillarious.. one of the main problems I think in american culture.. is that people have forgotten how to step back from themselves and just laugh at yourself. keep your eyes and ears open and you'll be suprised at what you can learn.

but.. A-freakin-men Flint.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Flint

Well she's constantly bombarding herself with the idea that she's living in a hostile environment. I swear, people submerge themselves in these commercial entertainment sources, and then complain about the world they think they're living in. Just fucking unplug the shit, unplug your fucking TV (for example), and INSTANTLY things change, you feel better.

Another angle to this, if I may, is that song "Red Neck Woman." I have argued with my friend (who has two young girls) that this song is not an appropriate song for young girls. She says "it's about accepting yourself the way you are" and I say "it's telling girls to tell themselves "I ain't no high class broad." Grammar aside, class is NOT about from where you came, or if you like country music or not, or if you prefer long neck beers to cosmopolitans. I think it's a terrible message. It's a small point to some, but it sticks in my craw.

My ex b/f used to DJ a lot at my club and there were 8 or 9 little girls, ranging in age from 3 to10 or so, begging to hear this song, and dancing like they needed a pole installed on the floor.

Being the queen of self-deprecating humor, it might seem ironic that I hope that all girls can grow up not thinking they are less, that they are an object to be used and abused, that they are just some low-class 'broad'. Yes, as always, I am idealistic. Subtle messages can have great impact.

I don't see a problem with the parties... people need to get over it.