Hamas founder killed

[tw]

Originally posted by Beestie
But I get the feeling that all the ass-kicking we've done lately led them to reconsider. Had we responded to our lack of popular support by cowering in the corner begging for mercy, I dare say there would be a different outcome.

Then you would be promoting the neanderthal reasoning that undermined so many great empires. The great and long lasting empires were tolerant; that only went to war on the worst of conditions. As a result, great nations spend most time wealthy, in peace, with many adjacent friends. Only those who think like Japan, Germany, and Italy worry about revenge for every little thing.

Again we return even back to lessons from Sun Tzu who makes this obvious. But to make the point in a soundbyte that even neanderthals would understand - 'keep your powder dry'. Talk softly, carry the big stick and rarely use it.

Great nations do as the US did in WWII. They attacked our ships even off the Atlantic coast. As a result, they never knew what would hit them from a country with one of the world's smallest militaries. And because the US waited for the smoking gun, then the US single handedly changed the entire world. Something that would not be possible had we jumped into WWII with everyone else. Victory so great not just because the US could produce so much. Because a tolerant US therefore had absolute necessary support from literally every neutral country and every citizen.

Only a neanderthal believes revenge solves things. The extremist Sharon advocates revenge- and therefore has only increased deaths and terrorism. Great nations only go to war after a smoking gun is created. Even Sun Tzu demonstrates why that tolerance makes a nation so much more powerful and successful.

It is foolish to think war makes a nation unpopular. Going to war in Afghanistan and Kuwait made the US THE most popular nation in the world - no one came close. But again, smoking gun makes a major difference. US was roundly unpopular during VietNam for good reason - both internationally and domestically. No smoking gun. Again, neanderthals such as George Jr and the Vulcans will never understand the power in that reasoning. People such as the Vulcans make good cannon fodder. Every nation needs some cannon fodder. But neanderthals make inferior leaders. They have no clue of the power found in tolerance - power in that smoking gun.

Lets say those neanderthals got their way - got revenge against China over a silly spy plane. Where would we be? Scum to most every nation. Smart people managed to bottle up the neanderthals - and avoided a China war. That is the lesson of history. Those who wait for the smoking gun are clear and long term victors. Preemption historically is only preached by neanderthals who end up refighting every war.

[godwulf]

I can't help but wonder who the other seven human beings were - the ones killed along with Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in the Israeli missle attack. How many were family members, children, innocent bystanders? What were their dreams, and how many people mourn and miss them today?

I know, I know...suicide bombers kill a lot of innocent bystanders, too. Is that our best moral defense? Are we basing our judgment and actions on what the suicide bombers do, then?

So many people in the West find it incredibly easy to simply look right through all of those non-Western faces - the ones belonging to the dead and dying of places like Palestine - as though they did not exist. We all get teary-eyed thinking about the victims of 9/11, and about their survivors, their children, their stolen lives, but in some parts of the world - not a few of whose ruling powers are supported by U.S. tax dollars - innocents die every day in an ongoing holocaust, and we point the finger at their leaders, their history, their culture - at everything and everyone but our own greed and ignorance.

Amid all the rhetoric and insults, is there any time at all to simply reflect on the humanity that is wasted every day in the name of political expediency?

[Undertoad]

There probably were innocents and children around the man when he was killed, because Pal leaders have taken to surrounding themselves with such when they appear in public because they know it improves their chances of not getting bombed.

[jaguar]

Er UT, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, the people just want to be there? Or it's someone's kid? Sorry but your logic on this one is farcial "they go near other people because they're terrorists!!!" Like the Israelis would hold off an attack over a few Palestinian innocents dieing anyway, never stopped them in the past.

[Undertoad]

"Son, I know all of the Hamas leaders are getting blown to bits but please go stand next to their top guy and wave that flag."

[jaguar]

As in it's his son?

By your logic I should give Salman Rushdie a wide berth as well. Secondly this is a cause people are impassioned about, this is their way of displaying that. I fail to see the reprehensible in that.

[godwulf]

Nice try, Jaguar...but arguments on the basis of fairness and equity are wasted on those who see Arabs as less worthy of consideration and sympathy than non-Arabs.

Did I glean correctly from some of your posts that you live in the U.K.? If so, I'm sure that you've at least gotten some idea, from this and other forums, how deeply ingrained and virulent is the pro-Israeli prejudice alive in the U.S. There is literally no way to break through it with logic or appeals to reason...or to attempt to do so without being immediately branded an anti-Semite, of course.

I'm afraid that the combination of widespread christian fundamentalist premillenialism, in which the state of Israel continues to hold a 'special place in God's plan', and the fact that a large percentage of Jewish Israelis are of European descent (White), there is only one politically correct view, in America, for one to take.

[Undertoad]

Didn't the U.K. set up the whole fucking plan in the first place?

[xoxoxoBruce]

And didn't the israelis persuade the British to bail out, with bombs?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by godwulf
Nice try, Jaguar...but arguments on the basis of fairness and equity are wasted on those who see Arabs as less worthy of consideration and sympathy than non-Arabs.

Did I glean correctly from some of your posts that you live in the U.K.? If so, I'm sure that you've at least gotten some idea, from this and other forums, how deeply ingrained and virulent is the pro-Israeli prejudice alive in the U.S. There is literally no way to break through it with logic or appeals to reason...or to attempt to do so without being immediately branded an anti-Semite, of course.

I'm afraid that the combination of widespread christian fundamentalist premillenialism, in which the state of Israel continues to hold a 'special place in God's plan', and the fact that a large percentage of Jewish Israelis are of European descent (White), there is only one politically correct view, in America, for one to take.

Ok, just so we're clear on this. I'm an egalitarian agnostic non-theist. My motivation for my feelings on this are pretty straight-forward.I'm tired of hearing about it, I'm tired of reading about it, I'm tired of seeing it on the news.

My plan for resolving the problem is to issue 1/2 pound blocks of Semtex or C4, their choice, to any adult, of either country, ambulatory enough to make it to the dispensing station. Each unit will be pre-built with a casing, shrapnel, and a timer that will last no more than five minutes once activated. Once your half pound has been proven to have been used then you can come back for another one. Any instances of use against anyone other than another country participating in the program will result in a much larger bomb being dropped somewhere randomly in a populated area, thus robbing those people of the chance to get to heaven on their terms.

You can't get much more fair than that.

[farfromhome]

[quote]Originally posted by tw ...Again we return even back to Lets say those neanderthals got their way - got revenge against China over a silly spy plane. Where would we be? Scum to most every nation. Smart people managed to bottle up the neanderthals - and avoided a China war. That is the lesson of history. Those who wait for the smoking gun are clear and long term victors. Preemption historically is only preached by neanderthals who end up refighting every war.QUOTE]
I didn't want to re-quote your whole post,TW.But, I do want to say I agree with you wholehardedly.Of course, none of us(or even our children)will be around to see how things play out.But.. to not mind the lessons of the past is just concieted and stupid.
This could be a golden era for this country.Perhaps we could use our Military and economic muscle to create a world in which the poor and desperate do not attack symbols of richness in the U.S. or anywhere.
I am guessing many will immediately say that its not economics.That in fact its religous.I agree.But I also think that the religous fervor many times comes from a life that is desperate,with no other way of belonging.With no way of bettering yourself.

[Spivey]

Just once, I'd like to hear a Westerner say the Israeli tactics are "cowardly," like they always do when some Palestinian blows up a handful of Israelis.

Strapping on a suicide belt, sneaking into Israel, boarding a bus and then saying goodbye to yourself as you detonate the bomb seems a little nervier than firing three missiles from the safety of an American Apache helicopter at a blind old man in a wheelchair.

I mean, the old guy went to pray 5 times a day. I could have walked up to the old fart in a mosque while they were all having quiet time on their little rugs and pinched his nostrils shut, he would have been dead long before the prayers were over, but the Israelis need an Apache helicopter? Maybe they're just show-offs?

Anyway, though the Palestinians are forced by their technological backwardness to act more courageously, the killings of each are equally futile. Neither is going to say "OK, that was the murder that broke the camel's back, we give up." The violence only further radicalizes each side.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The Israeli tactics are cowardly.
Welcome to the Cellar, Spivey
By the way, the Israeli tatics are also very efficient at killing people. Unfortunately the said same tactics don't solve anything but I think both sides are way past trying to solve anything. It's just paybacks now.

[Undertoad]

Similarly, Spivey, it takes guts and religious fanaticism to burn a cross in someone's yard. Spread that admiration around!

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Similarly, Spivey, it takes guts and religious fanaticism to burn a cross in someone's yard. Spread that admiration around!

No it doesn't. It just takes hard drinkin' and racism.