Watching the Democrats - it's Fun and Macabre!

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

Anecdotal evidence is no kind of proof. And one byte of data is not a full meal.

And do you sir, have ANY evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, showing that unarmed, defenseless people, are safe from violence?

What about the recent shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, CONN?

That was a GUN FREE Zone, AND the shooter was prohibited BY LAW, from possessing a gun.

Are you learning something here?

Like yourself, I WISH that people were not given to such extremes of violence - but I recognize that is only a WISH, and has no relation to reality. Never has been that way, and it never will be that way.

Real People are armed. Sheeple People are dreamers, hoping not to be seen when they try and hide under their desks.

[BigV]

Moved to HERE because this thread is Adak's pet rant against Democrats thread, and gun violence knows no such political distinctions.

[IamSam]

It IS difficult to get Adak to stay on topic, isn't it? I'm following BigV over to the other thread with my reply as well.

[Adak]

I'm following the subjects given in the latest press conference of Obama. It's about gun control and the debt limit.

And we've covered the debt limit, last month:

Obama can't stay within the debt limit, because he's spending like a drunken sailor in port, and on leave. No limit on spending, is what he wants.

Too bad that the Constitution doesn't allow him to skirt around the House of Representatives, and spend MORE, MORE, MORE!

So we're back to gun control.

These are both Bill of Rights issues - they are not privileges that we have to plead with the government, in order to attain.

[IamSam]

Last month was the cliff. Now all the cool kids in the House are talking about the ceiling. Gov't shutdown is scheduled for March 27th.
Get with the program.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by Adak

And do you sir, have ANY evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, showing that unarmed, defenseless people, are safe from violence?

Why yes. As a matter of fact, I do.

On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia's history.

Twelve days later, Australia's government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

But here's the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn't been a single one in Australia since.

The above quotes are from here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/18/506...-provides.html

A Times magazine article on the UK and Australia bans: http://world.time.com/2012/12/17/whe...and-australia/

So there you have it - hard statistical data.

Go peddle your NRA talking points elsewhere.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

Why yes. As a matter of fact, I do.
The above quotes are from here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/18/506...-provides.html

A Times magazine article on the UK and Australia bans: http://world.time.com/2012/12/17/whe...and-australia/

So there you have it - hard statistical data.

Go peddle your NRA talking points elsewhere.

Read it and weep, and get your facts right:
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

April 13, 2009

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.

While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.

Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009.

For text:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austi...espite-gun-ban

Brevik killed over 65 children and 12 adults, in Norway, mostly with a gun (8 by a bomb he made). And Norway has VERY strict gun control laws - but Anders Brevik didn't CARE about obeying the gun control laws of his country.

What makes you believe that the next nut case that wants to kill people in the US, will in fact, obey the gun control laws we might pass?

There are reasonable improvements in our gun control laws, (like banning high capacity magazines). Like requiring a locking mechanism be sold (or shown he has one by the buyer), with every firearm sold. This would probably be a trigger lock, but could be a gun safe.

The thing we have to do now, is stop congress from passing knee-jerk stupid laws, that chip away at the second amendment, and give us no real added safety - CA has many such stupid laws on it's books regarding gun control - sheer nonsense.

Good legislation can be crafted, but not by people opposed to firearms. We will see whether the leaders in Washington are up to this task. Personally, I doubt it, but maybe something good will come out of the Sandy Hook massacre.

[Pete Zicato]

What part of "no mass shootings" are you having problems with?

I have no illusions that that gun control will make life perfect and we'll have double rainbows every day. There will still be guns of some sort and we'll continue to have gun crime.

But obviously, Australia has reduced mass shootings. That's worth a lot right there.

And don't think I didn't notice that you went from NRA talking points to quoting a right-wing mouthpiece. You really need to get out more.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

What part of "no mass shootings" are you having problems with?

I have no illusions that that gun control will make life perfect and we'll have double rainbows every day. There will still be guns of some sort and we'll continue to have gun crime.

But obviously, Australia has reduced mass shootings. That's worth a lot right there.

And don't think I didn't notice that you went from NRA talking points to quoting a right-wing mouthpiece. You really need to get out more.

Brevik shot over 60 children, in a country that has a long history of gun control, (compared to say, Australia which has a very short history of it).

If you are saying that a very small sample (of time), from one country with gun control is enough to justify a change in our Constitutional Bill of Rights, then I can say the opposite, with years when the US did not have any mass shootings.

Who cares WHERE the stats came from? Stats are stats. Australia's violent crime did not decrease as a result of gun control, as much as the US did, without it.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by Adak

Brevik shot over 60 children, in a country that has a long history of gun control, (compared to say, Australia which has a very short history of it).

And when was the previous mass shooting in Norway - all the other mass shootings they must have had because of their gun control laws?

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

And when was the previous mass shooting in Norway - all the other mass shootings they must have had because of their gun control laws?

I'm not saying that gun laws promote mass shootings, or that Norwegians are nearly as prone to gun violence as Americans are.

What I AM saying is, your gun control laws will not stop a gun massacre - or murders, etc. Criminals can get guns, and they don't give a hot damn about breaking gun control laws, to get them.

Chicago has the toughest gun control laws in the country, (New York city is described as the second toughest). But Chicago is the murder capital of the US - 513 murders in 2012, and currently at a slightly higher rate so far in 2013. A lot of it is being done by gangs, and they are mostly using -- you guessed it -- illegal guns!

If gun control laws worked, then having a discussion about tightening those laws, MIGHT make sense. But they don't, and the Obama administration is NOT enforcing the gun control laws we ALREADY have.

For example - lying on the form you fill out to get a gun, is a federal crime, but the Obama administration is not charging those who do it.
Why? Bush did it. Biden was asked about this by Jim Baker recently and said "we don't have the manpower...". That's odd, because you have MORE manpower than Bush ever had. WTF?

If you're not going to enforce the laws we have already, what good will having a bunch more laws to restrict the freedoms of the good citizens, do?

In America, when someone comes after you to do you harm, there's a good chance they'll have a gun, or some other weapon. When and if that happens, you will pray to God that you have a gun, to help even up the odds.

The idea that gun control laws will keep guns away from criminals, is so insane. I urge you to contact your local police dept. Ask them if it's difficult for criminals to buy an illegal gun in your city. Ask how long it would take to buy this illegal gun, in your city? **

Just ask, it's free!

** (maybe 10 minutes?)