#2 VS #14

[dmg1969]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

The constitution is the operating system of the united states. It may need to be tweaked, but you better be damned careful of the results before you apply the changes.

First you'd have to convince me that this is a bug that needs to be fixed.

I'd say that all of the money we spend on illegals annually and the crimes they commit make it a pretty damn big bug.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

I'd say that all of the money we spend on illegals annually and the crimes they commit make it a pretty damn big bug.

How much is that in dollars, and do you have substantiated documentation to back it up?
How does that compare to the general population?

If you can do all that, then make a case that this problem can only be fixed through a change to the constitution - as opposed to just enforcing the laws we already have.

If we stop looking the other way when employers hire undocumented workers and if we stopped providing government support, then I suspect we'd have a lot fewer undocumented workers.

[dmg1969]

I wholeheartedly agree Pete...the government does very little to prevent illegals from entering the country. In many cases, certain law enforcement agencies might as well be fishing with the catch and release policies they have. I've heard stories about locals calling ICE when they have an illegal in custody only to be told to release them because they don't have the time or manpower to do anything about it. That's why some states are taking matters into their own hands. Hell, some cities in Kalifornia actually declare themselves as a "sanctuary city" for illegals! How fucked up is that?

I also agree that we need to come down HEAVILY on companies that employ illegals. Maybe the threat of a $250,000 fine per illegal found during a raid would change their minds about hiring them.

As far as the figures...I don't have them and I'm sure they vary according to who you believe. I think it's safe to say that it is in the billions upon billions of dollars per year. Changing 14 will at least be a start by defining that just because a pregnant illegal is lucky enough to evade capture on the way here...she can't legally put down roots because the child is a citizen.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

How much is that in dollars, and do you have substantiated documentation to back it up?
How does that compare to the general population?

Are you denying that illegal aliens cost us citizens money? If not, then why do you need specific numbers? If yes, then you're nuts.

If you can do all that, then make a case that this problem can only be fixed through a change to the constitution - as opposed to just enforcing the laws we already have.

Since when has this been the standard? AZ is trying to enforce the laws we already have, with law enforcement officers already employed. Not allowed to at the moment...

If we stop looking the other way when employers hire undocumented workers and if we stopped providing government support, then I suspect we'd have a lot fewer undocumented workers.

Who's we? I'm not looking the other way. I'm not hiring illegals. I'd like to not support them either.

The 14th has been interpreted many different ways over the years, depending on political climate. The political climate right now calls into question the soundness of the current interpretation because of those who are abusing it.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by jinx

Are you denying that illegal aliens cost us citizens money? If not, then why do you need specific numbers?

I'm looking for a frame of reference.
Is this a big problem or a little problem? How does it compare with the other problems we have? Will it cost more to fix this problem than to leave it alone? If you don't have the answers to these questions, then why are you focusing on this particular problem? America's got lots of problems and this is just one of many.

Originally Posted by jinx

Since when has this been the standard? AZ is trying to enforce the laws we already have, with law enforcement officers already employed. Not allowed to at the moment...
Who's we? I'm not looking the other way. I'm not hiring illegals. I'd like to not support them either.

The 14th has been interpreted many different ways over the years, depending on political climate. The political climate right now calls into question the soundness of the current interpretation because of those who are abusing it.

Because changing the constitution is brain surgery. You don't want to do this unless the problem is a major problem. You also don't want to do this if the problem can be fixed with less drastic measures.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

I'm looking for a frame of reference.
Is this a big problem or a little problem? How does it compare with the other problems we have? Will it cost more to fix this problem than to leave it alone? If you don't have the answers to these questions, then why are you focusing on this particular problem? America's got lots of problems and this is just one of many.

Because changing the constitution is brain surgery. You don't want to do this unless the problem is a major problem. You also don't want to do this if the problem can be fixed with less drastic measures.

The economy is in the toilet, unemployment is very high. Re-evaluation of where the money is going is happening at a familial level all the way thru national level- that's why this issue is in the forefront (imo anyway). America does have a lot of problems. It's not an either-or thing though, you can address this problem AND any other problem you personally want to focus on. Focusing on this one to say we shouldn't be focusing on it is helping how?

The costs: How much does it cost to NOT grant citizenship, issue birth cert. and social secuirty cards, to infants who's mothers can't prove they are here legally?
How much does it cost to have a federal task force inspect paperwork at ever business in America, frequently? (Keep in mind that targeting businesses that most commonly hire illegals would be profiling, so they would have to check every single one. Frequently.)

I agree that business should face penalties for hiring illegals. If done effectively it would reduce incentive for illegal immigration, just like getting rid of the anchor-baby option. Unfortunately, it would also cost a lot.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by jinx

America does have a lot of problems. It's not an either-or thing though, you can address this problem AND any other problem you personally want to focus on.

This is untrue. Unless you want to raise taxes, there is only so much money to spend on solving americas problems. You can't focus on everything, so you've got to pick and choose.

Originally Posted by jinx

Focusing on this one to say we shouldn't be focusing on it is helping how?

People seem to be in "the sky is falling" mode over this issue. Call me a skeptic, but if people want me to be all upset over this, then I need more than rhetoric. Someone must be out there saying we need to change the constitution. Isn't that the focus of this thread? All I'm saying is that changing the constitution is (or should be) a big deal, and should not be done for issues that can be handled in cheaper simpler ways.

Originally Posted by jinx

The costs: How much does it cost to NOT grant citizenship, issue birth cert. and social secuirty cards, to infants who's mothers can't prove they are here legally?

This sounds ok to me. What is the current law on this? Are children of illegals legal or is this just bad record keeping?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

What is the current law on this? Are children of illegals legal or is this just bad record keeping?

Any child born in the US is a US citizen. This is one of the hot-button issues as it creates situations whereby there are millions of families who have both legal and illegal members here. Typically the parents came here illegally and had a child.
Parents = illegal
Child = US citizen.

One argument is that this is not what was intended when it was originally written.