Net neutrality

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Really? wow. how enlightening. not.

Now just replace ideology with power and you might be on to something.

People run for office to pursue an ideological agenda that they believe in, not with the goal of getting as much lobbyists money as they can.

Money (and power) is an enabler.

Please point me to where money indisputably changed one's ideology.

One party's ideology is to support a government regulatory role as being in the best public interest...the other's is to support a reliance on voluntary industry action as being in the best public interest. The McCain bill makes that pretty clear.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

People run for office to pursue an ideological agenda that they believe in, not with the goal of getting as much lobbyists money as they can.

Keep telling yourself this if it makes you feel better. It is false.

Money (and power) is an enabler.

Yea, all the more reason for me to contribute to the defeat of Harry Reid.

Please point me to where money indisputably changed one's ideology.

Pick up any HS history book. Don't let the facts get in the way of your excuses.

One party's ideology is to support a government regulatory role in the best public interest...the other's is to support a reliance on voluntary industry action in the best public interest.

Voluntary! What are you kidding me.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

Please point me to where money indisputably changed one's ideology.

Prove to me their ideology was not changed.

Here are a few short lists:

http://politicalgraveyard.com/trouble/kickbacks.html

more recent:

Recent cases that have been investigated and politicians charged include:

Thomas Dale DeLay, Republican Representative from Texas 22nd District was indicted on criminal conspiracy and money laundering.
William Jennings Jefferson, Democratic Representative from Louisiana 2nd District, named as an unindicted co-conspirator by prosecutors in connection with the Brent Pfeffer’s guilty plea to bribery charges.
Randall Cunningham, Republican U.S. Representatives from California 50th District, pleaded guilty on Federal conspiracy and tax evasion charges.

Read more: http://peacesecurity.suite101.com/ar...#ixzz0VBQMHXQg

Let's Go International!

http://ty.rannosaur.us/10-plundering-politicians/

How about that Larry Summers! What a piece of work:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...s_bailing_out/

http://www.sextonreunion.com/profile...st-financially

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Prove to me their ideology was not changed.

I agree completely that money can (and does) corrupt.

But where did it change DeLay's ideology or Jefferson's....or any sitting elected official? Where/when did they vote against their ideology?

When did DeLay take money to vote FOR a strong government regulatory program as opposed to supporting the position of the business community? When did Jefferson vote against the Democratic position on a bill?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

I agree completely that money can (and does) corrupt.

But where did it change DeLay's ideology or Jefferson's....or any sitting elected official? Where/when did they vote against their ideology?

Well if you believe that, "People run for office to pursue an ideological agenda that they believe in, not with the goal of getting as much lobbyists money as they can.", then you must believe that all those who have been convicted of the crimes of taking money actually went into politics specifically with an ideology to take money from the outset. So guys like Randall “Duke” Cunningham never really wanted to do anything but get money, right?

So who is the mind reader now?

Redux:
I am impressed that you can read the minds of all of our elected officials to know what influences their votes. I guess you do have powers greater than mine to KNOW that they are influenced by money rather or more than ideology.

But yet you can't really prove you know what their ideology is or is not. Like I said, I believe their actions speak louder than their words. The majority may have started out with "ideology" as a motivator but most are in it for power. And for a few who have been caught it is more obvious.

How about ole Mr Jefferson and his cash in the freezer? Damm you would have thought he could have come up with a better hiding place.

[spudcon]

Okay, I'm back, and here's my answer. I don't trust ANY regulatory control over any private business by the government we've had in the last twenty years. They have proven themselves incompetant again and again. Say what you will about big business, but it's the small businesses that get bullied out by government fascism, while the big businesses that are in bed with politicians are rewarded for corruption. Remember the banks that were too big to let go under? Funny how government regulators bailed out the bank that handled their pensions, while small town banks and businesses were thrown to the wolves. If I start a small internet company, I don't want Big Brother regulating me out of business.
And just because the FCC under Bush started this idea, it is still a commission, and who are they accountable to? Not me and not you.
Keep the government out of the internet, or we'll be in the same boat as the Chinese.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

I agree completely that money can (and does) corrupt.

But where did it change DeLay's ideology or Jefferson's....or any sitting elected official? Where/when did they vote against their ideology?

When did DeLay take money to vote FOR a strong government regulatory program as opposed to supporting the position of the business community? When did Jefferson vote against the Democratic position on a bill?

How do you know what their ideology is and was from the beginning? Can you tell me that you are reading their minds? It is not about voting for or against Demoncrats, it is about voting for and inserting favorable legislation which supports lobbyists and big business interests. You act like you don't know any of this.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by spudcon

Okay, I'm back, and here's my answer. I don't trust ANY regulatory control over any private business by the government we've had in the last twenty years. They have proven themselves incompetant again and again. Say what you will about big business, but it's the small businesses that get bullied out by government fascism, while the big businesses that are in bed with politicians are rewarded for corruption. Remember the banks that were too big to let go under? Funny how government regulators bailed out the bank that handled their pensions, while small town banks and businesses were thrown to the wolves. If I start a small internet company, I don't want Big Brother regulating me out of business.
And just because the FCC under Bush started this idea, it is still a commission, and who are they accountable to? Not me and not you.
Keep the government out of the internet, or we'll be in the same boat as the Chinese.

Yea, read my link about Larry Summers above, it will make you want to puke on his desk.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...s_bailing_out/

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

How do you know what their ideology is and was from the beginning? Can you tell me that you are reading their minds?

If you are not willing to accept that there are significant ideology differences between the two major parties (and individual officials) on most (not all) policy issues based on platforms, campaigns, voting records, etc....there is little to discuss.

Carry on.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

If you are not willing to accept that there are significant ideology differences between the two major parties (and individual officials) on most (not all) policy issues based on platforms, campaigns, voting records, etc....there is little to discuss.

I never said anything about "differences between the two major parties", that has nothing to do with this discusssion. You are the one who brought up the esoteric idea that a politicians "ideology" in someway had an effect on their basic and inherent coruptness. Don't let the facts get in the way of your defense of the Demoncrats or any politician in power for that matter. You asked me to provide you with examples and I did so, numerous.

[TheMercenary]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the ideology of former Congressman Randy Cunningham:

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.co...ke-cunningham/

Followed by the ideology of former Congressman William Jefferson:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080503195.html

[spudcon]

Reading about scumbag Summers just validates what I said. And some want the internet to be influenced by these types of bureaucrats. Blech!

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

How do you know what their ideology is and was from the beginning? Can you tell me that you are reading their minds?.

Nope..no mind reading.

I can only say that I interacted with members of Congress for more than 10 years, both from within (Senate staff) and from the other side (public interest lobbyist).. and those interactions were with both those with whom I agreed and those with whom I didnt. And, I think it gives me more insight into what motivates them than many, including you.

For the last 10 years, my interactions have been more with state and local elected officials (governors and mayors), some of whom have gone on to higher office and others with those aspirations...not for the money, but to pursue an ideology.

How many elected officials have you actually spoken with in your lifetime to know what motivates them?

Or you can find a handful of examples of those who were corrupted and make sweeping generalizations without providing any evidence of how positions or ideology where changed by money.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

Nope..no mind reading.

Or you can find a handful of examples of those who were corrupted and make sweeping generalizations without providing any evidence of how positions or ideology where changed by money.

But yet you admit you have no idea what their ideology really is, only what you believe them to believe. Not by their actions. I take it the other way. And if the behavior of the Current Congress is any measure it further validates that they are in it for power and not for some esoteric "ideology" you care care to hang your hat on. Their actions speak their ideology for them.

But then again you are a nameless faceless internet poster just like me and you expect me to trust you?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

make sweeping generalizations without providing any evidence of how positions or ideology where changed by money.

If you believe that ideology drives them then what is the ideology of these, much more than a few, examples of corrupt politicians. If their ideology did not change due to money then they must have been corrupt from the very beginning of their entry into politics, right?

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=603803&postcount=33