View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

Originally Posted by classicman

Perhaps Hamas is just a willing pawn in a very ugly game.

IMO, the Palestinian people are the pawn. Their fate is in their own hands.

A quote from Golda Meir says it all for me:

“We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Redux, let us continue: these ignorant people need to get punted around the playground a while until some fucking light breaks through. Poster DanaC has already left the fray with egg, or worse, on her face, for her non-enlightenment.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If Israel should be condemned for oppressing the Palestinians by cutting them off from the world, what about their neighbor Egypt?

Why should we even be involved in the politics of nations halfway around the world? I understand we want to promote democracy and human decency and all that, but frankly, those countries have their own cultures, cultures that are very different from our own. Who are we to judge another culture? We cannot simply judge those cultures by our standards. It isn't right to do that. And how is our intention to "spread democracy" any different than Russia trying to "spread communism" during the cold war? We cannot just go around forcing our way of thinking and being on everyone else.

I personally believe in the whole Star Trek creed of not interfering in the development of other cultures, other than offering certain kinds of aid. We certainly shouldn't be fighting wars for people, giving them weapons or funding wars. Yes, we should work with groups like Amnesty International and the UN to fight genocide, and use NATO to help establish and keep peace in volatile regions, but more than things like that, I think we should mind our own business.

[Aliantha]

What are you going to continue with UG? A mutual admiration society? lol

Please don't call me ignorant and I wont call you an arsehole my friend.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Ali, in those moments when you are ignorant -- and if I'm not -- I'll tell you so. If you're going to be an arsehole -- not likely, as you have a knack for avoiding that -- I promise I'll call you on that too.

[Aliantha]

Well, some people think I'm an arsehole that's for sure. Lucky I don't give a shit about that though (pardon the pun).

I just don't think it's fair to suggest someone with a different opinion is ignorant. Perhaps they see facts from a different perspective or have different motivations, but that doesn't make them ignorant. It makes them different, and possibly helpful in situations which require diplomacy, which is what I think is sadly lacking in this instance.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Many antisemites attempt to cloak themselves under the allegedly more respectable mantle of antiZionism -- but their fraud is transparent. Frankly, I reckon antiZionist Jews to be completely out of touch with their own people's interests: it is manifest that statelessness is a very dangerous condition to be in in Europe. With a Jewish State around, abuse of Jews has much declined -- is that not historically demonstrated?

And what is really ironic, is they are doing to others similar things that were done to them for generations.

AntiZionist Jews are not out of touch. Why can't you recognize they have a right to their beliefs as well? That is the whole thing with you, it is your point of view, or none. All others are wrong. I reject that very narrow focus. There can be more than one right answer, more than one way to do things, or to look at things.

As for yelling about "show me where I said that," SP, need I tell you that when you write words, there are thoughts behind the words -- whether these thoughts are acknowledged consciously or not. Ideas birth words -- and it is not difficult to see what those ideas are. Nor is it very complicated in your case to see that your words leave a scent of the anti-Semite on you. Anti-Zionism is, well, the realm of two schools of thought, and I wouldn't give two bits for the both of them taken together: stupid, unpractical Jews who can't see their own people's best interest in the mortal world, and stupid and brutal bigotry against Jews from outsiders. I'd not ally myself with either silly bunch.

Wow. So you think you have some kind of magic mirror that allows you to look into my soul, and my brain, and know what I'm thinking? Then why am I bothering to open my mouth? In the same vein, it isn't hard at all to see where YOU are coming from. You have the same attitude bush had, egomaniac. You're always right. Your opinion is the only right one. Only your answers are the right ones for any problem. It must be really nice to be right all the time, and to know that you are so superior to the rest of us. Better watch out up there on that pedastal...

Here you show a mighty misreading of what I actually said -- you're listening too much to what you were unfortunate enough to think I said, instead: I did not say "first people," I said "the Jews were in before there was ever a Muslim." The Jews have a defensible prior claim, if you want to assign sacredness to who's there before whomever else. Stop kidding yourself, or I will both chew on you like a dog toy and insult your intelligence the while. You aren't winning this. Not ever.

How can you possibly know that? You can't. No one can. And what does Islam have to do with the people who live there? Islam is a religion. The people in the Middle East predate religion... ALL religion, including Judaism. Just because Judaism predates Islam does not mean the people who are there (and happen now to be Muslim) don't have roots that go back in time to before Israel's first incarnation.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

And so, this Michael Yon article sets forth yet another exigesis on just how those in authority in Palestine remain spherical assholes on the grandest scale available to them. To support this kind of behavior over that of the Israelis, whose forbearance should be the stuff of legend, shows you in the worst possible light, SP: as a complete whore for all that is evil.

{Edited at Classicman's suggestion: and before you blow up at me, read the rest of this thread, particularly post #268. Remember which contender in this strife is the democracy, and which are not.}

"Whore for evil" is something none can say of me. There are those, yet swimming in the great darkness, even yet unenlightened, who will complain about me all afternoon long, with an appendix after supper -- but one thing they cannot say is that UG attaches to evil. I scourge it. You don't feel like being scourged, then don't even be mistaken for an evildoer.

Now tell me: was this really what you set out to do??

So you are calling me a whore for evil? Nice. I'm done with you. You're an asshole, in the worst possible way.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Redux

As an east coast liberal Zionist Jew, I am totally with UG on this one.

The creation of state of Israel was recognized by the international community with the partition of Palestine.

And the state of Israel has attempted to make peace with its neighbors for 50+ years and has succeeded with its more moderate Arab neighbors - Egypt and Jordan.

It sought a two state solution with the Palestinians in the 90s, only to have Arrafat kill the deal.

It sought to make peace with the Hamas by unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza as a first step to a broader solution, only to be faced with 3 years of continuous rocket attacks into its southern cities.

Hamas exists solely to continue to wage war against Israel. It is at the very heart of its existence.

I would agree that Israel's response was heavy handed and did not help create an environment that could bring the parties to the negotiating table.

When Hamas is ready to recognize Israel's right to exist and disavow terrorism, I think they and the Palestinian people will find a willing partner.

And both sides will need to make hard choices and compromises.

I understand your point, and I agree with you up to a point. But both sides are at fault.

And to be clear, I remember reading an article, and seeing a documentary on PBS (maybe it was Frontline?) or somewhere back in the late 90s/early 2000s, where Clinton had said he was frustrated with Israel because they were the ones who were being unreasonable when he was trying to broker peace between them. And I know for a fact that Israel has broken many cease fires, as well as Hamas. So, while I understand your point of view, and I agree somewhat, it isn't the whole truth, and isn't completely accurate.

Yes, Hamas uses horrific fighting techniques, and I do not condone them. They are fighting an enemy that has unlimited resources, while they have very few. So they resort to techniques that most people think sickening. Yes, their thinking is very backwards, but I do understand how certain things (like oppression) can drive people to do the unthinkable. It's human nature, psychology.

And let's not forget that Israel used terrorism, and had terrorist organizations, well before the PLO was in existance. Yes, it's in the past, but their hands are not completely clean, like you make out. Terrorism is nothing new. It has been around for a very long time. You cannot win against terrorism fighting with conventional methods. Usually, it needs diplomacy, not weapons. (ftr, I always thought Britian should leave Ireland to the Irish, and that would have ended the actions of the IRA. In cases of terrorism, it is almost always a very strong country trying to force their will on a weaker one, in many cases using force to take over their country.)

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Why should we even be involved in the politics of nations halfway around the world? I understand we want to promote democracy and human decency and all that, but frankly, those countries have their own cultures, cultures that are very different from our own.

What we see with democracy (I speak in a loose sense) is that it's simply better than autocracy or oligarchy: democracies are slow to war and powerful to prosperity, both of which are very good things, acclaimed by anyone not a sociopath. A culture with an oppression enshrined within it is a culture that is sick, cancerous, bad -- and if its sickness is infectious, this is very bad.

Who are we to judge another culture? We cannot simply judge those cultures by our standards. It isn't right to do that.

Ah, yes: moral relativism. You've been persistently schooled in it, I see. Your education will no longer be impeded by your schooling, SP, when you abandon this philosophy -- for until you do, you will not be able to distinguish that which is good from that which is evil. That's whatcha call dumbth. Somebody wants you incapable of moral choices, and that incapability will screw your entire life up. Hey, when I was a college frosh, I had some of these ideas too. But I haven't been a college frosh these thirty years now; and there's been some growing up done. I gave up any trace of moral relativism when I noticed I couldn't distinguish good from evil by those means. I've never had cause to return, either.

So, in the end: Why do we make moral judgements? It's because we are moral beings, however imperfect, however perfectible. They of the leftward lean would like us not to be so, that they may the better perform the hemipygian deeds, adhere to the ill-thought philosophies, that their baser natures accustom them to. It ain't for me, Sugarpop. For me, it's been, Been there, did that maybe a little, and eww.

And how is our intention to "spread democracy" any different than Russia trying to "spread communism" during the cold war? We cannot just go around forcing our way of thinking and being on everyone else.

When democracy is spread abroad, prosperity follows, oppression recedes. Where was there prosperity in the Soviet bloc? Was there anyone not oppressed? Even the Party animals and the nomenklatura could end up shot or in the Gulag. (Holding unpopular opinions/being not politically correct in a nondemocracy is very bad for your health. Here in a democracy, it just gets you into internet flamefights.) There's your answer for how very different we are from those. You have not been taught our quiet nobility yet, SP, and you need it now.

As for "forcing:" we don't force, no matter what the anti-American Left will repetitively say. There are approximately eleven million people in the States right now who personify my argument. These are the illegal immigrants. They want to partake of our way of thinking and being so badly they break in to get it. Quite illegally. Think about that for a minute. They're here because they want what we do and how we do it more than anything else, including not getting arrested. Add to these eleven million the ones who ARE here legally, and you've got quite an example. Show me another nation with that kind of attractiveness. Again, how many nations are getting their doors kicked down and fences climbed over, to partake at literally any price? I can think of some other places that are really really nice; I've seen a few of 'em; but I can't think of one to compare with our City on the Hill for sheer mass of people trying to get in.

I think we should mind our own business.

I say all this is our business, and unless we turn into a hermit kingdom, it will remain our business. We are the most successful capitalist democracy ever seen, anywhere on the globe. We achieve that by our global reach, and we cannot do without it. Humanity will prosper all the better the more it imitates our best features. All of humanity's androgenic woes come from not practicing America's ways, but sticking with ancient despotisms and oligarchies. The wisdomless invertebrates who taught you do not comprehend this -- their bowing before ancient despotisms and oligarchies is not understandable, except in terms of closet fascism for the braver/more crazed ones and abject cowardice for all the rest.

The Left would very much like you not to understand any of this, Sugarpop, for once you do, you turn away from the Left as an aggravating aggregation of egregious dweebs -- a committee with three or more legs and no brain. The leftwards people do not value general prosperity, nor good conduct. They are the Left because they value only Power, with a capital P. They are the latterday Ebenezer Scrooges, monomaniacally fixated on but a single thing. Scrooge illustrates how it's the dose that makes the poison -- and hints that you'd have to be absurdly lucky to fully learn his lesson as late as he did.

Your life's education begins with an openminded reading of Russell Kirk -- though Robert A. Heinlein isn't bad this way either, only he wrote fiction and Kirk's an essayist.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

AntiZionist Jews are not out of touch. Why can't you recognize they have a right to their beliefs as well?

Because on the whole, their beliefs are destructive of Judaism. That seems to me too much wrongfulness. See above about moral relativism -- it cuts no ice.

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Wow. So you think you have some kind of magic mirror that allows you to look into my soul, and my brain, and know what I'm thinking? Then why am I bothering to open my mouth?

Magic? Why, none whatever. You write; I read, I get your ideas -- and thus, I see into your soul. Your ideas are exactly what you're thinking, no? While you're bothering to open your mouth, I'm bothering to look inside. And I've probably got twenty or thirty years of life's experiences on you, which does rather help to clarify the view.

Yes, I know what you're thinking. I read your posts.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

And to be clear, I remember reading an article, and seeing a documentary on PBS (maybe it was Frontline?) or somewhere back in the late 90s/early 2000s, where Clinton had said he was frustrated with Israel because they were the ones who were being unreasonable when he was trying to broker peace between them.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/.../kfojmhmhidey/

Bill Clinton held Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat responsible for the collapse of Middle East peace efforts, and told him so, the former president said in an interview published ahead of his new book’s release.

Clinton said that as he was preparing to leave the White House, Arafat thanked him for his work and called him a great man.

"I replied: 'I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you have made me one,'" Clinton said.

He said then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak was ready to make major concessions for peace in 2000 but Arafat was not able to "make the final jump from revolutionary to statesman … he just couldn’t bring himself to say yes".

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Magic? Why, none whatever. You write; I read, I get your ideas -- and thus, I see into your soul.

You are the debbil

(runs and hides)

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Can't hide from me! (runs after Classic)

[Aliantha]

ok, now the mental image I have is of classic running around the couch being followed by UG in chainmail carrying a horse whip. lol

Trust me, it's funny!