View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Redux

As an east coast liberal Zionist Jew, I am totally with UG on this one.

The creation of state of Israel was recognized by the international community with the partition of Palestine.

And the state of Israel has attempted to make peace with its neighbors for 50+ years and has succeeded with its more moderate Arab neighbors - Egypt and Jordan.

It sought a two state solution with the Palestinians in the 90s, only to have Arrafat kill the deal.

It sought to make peace with the Hamas by unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza as a first step to a broader solution, only to be faced with 3 years of continuous rocket attacks into its southern cities.

Hamas exists solely to continue to wage war against Israel. It is at the very heart of its existence.

I would agree that Israel's response was heavy handed and did not help create an environment that could bring the parties to the negotiating table.

When Hamas is ready to recognize Israel's right to exist and disavow terrorism, I think they and the Palestinian people will find a willing partner.

And both sides will need to make hard choices and compromises.

I understand your point, and I agree with you up to a point. But both sides are at fault.

And to be clear, I remember reading an article, and seeing a documentary on PBS (maybe it was Frontline?) or somewhere back in the late 90s/early 2000s, where Clinton had said he was frustrated with Israel because they were the ones who were being unreasonable when he was trying to broker peace between them. And I know for a fact that Israel has broken many cease fires, as well as Hamas. So, while I understand your point of view, and I agree somewhat, it isn't the whole truth, and isn't completely accurate.

Yes, Hamas uses horrific fighting techniques, and I do not condone them. They are fighting an enemy that has unlimited resources, while they have very few. So they resort to techniques that most people think sickening. Yes, their thinking is very backwards, but I do understand how certain things (like oppression) can drive people to do the unthinkable. It's human nature, psychology.

And let's not forget that Israel used terrorism, and had terrorist organizations, well before the PLO was in existance. Yes, it's in the past, but their hands are not completely clean, like you make out. Terrorism is nothing new. It has been around for a very long time. You cannot win against terrorism fighting with conventional methods. Usually, it needs diplomacy, not weapons. (ftr, I always thought Britian should leave Ireland to the Irish, and that would have ended the actions of the IRA. In cases of terrorism, it is almost always a very strong country trying to force their will on a weaker one, in many cases using force to take over their country.)

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

And to be clear, I remember reading an article, and seeing a documentary on PBS (maybe it was Frontline?) or somewhere back in the late 90s/early 2000s, where Clinton had said he was frustrated with Israel because they were the ones who were being unreasonable when he was trying to broker peace between them.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/.../kfojmhmhidey/

Bill Clinton held Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat responsible for the collapse of Middle East peace efforts, and told him so, the former president said in an interview published ahead of his new book’s release.

Clinton said that as he was preparing to leave the White House, Arafat thanked him for his work and called him a great man.

"I replied: 'I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you have made me one,'" Clinton said.

He said then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak was ready to make major concessions for peace in 2000 but Arafat was not able to "make the final jump from revolutionary to statesman … he just couldn’t bring himself to say yes".