Did we just declare a financial War on Iran?

[spudcon]

Nope, never been to Detroit. I have been a member of two unions tho, (Teamsters and machinists union) so I have experience with unions. It doesn't matter if you're making cars or widgets, union attitudes are as elitist as you think management is. They think they should be in charge of the factories, and then we would all be working in Utopia. My experience with union meetings and union leaders is they talk big, swear a lot, take the dues, and try to tell members how to vote.
Even a boss I once had who was a total jerk treated me better than any union.
As for engineers having to get permission from management to do something, where I worked, the union would not allow any engineer to lift any tool. They had to call in a union guy to tighten a screw some union guy left loose.
Sorry TW, you're the one with the agenda.

[tw]

Originally Posted by spudcon

Nope, never been to Detroit. I have been a member of two unions tho, (Teamsters and machinists union)

which somehow makes you an expert? Hardly. You see thing in good vs evil. Made more obvious because you never state underlying reasons why AND have an obvious distaste for doing so.

History is chock full of adversarial unions only created by adversarial management. One of the greatest examples was Henry Ford who suddenly realized this mistake, fired his Pinkerton Guards, stopped blaming the unions, and suddenly had no more strikes are more profitable plants.

How did Japan that suffered country wide union riots in the 1950s and 60s suddenly end this strife? Eventually all Japanese management learned the concepts of W E Deming where bosses work for the employees. Since employees were now making decisions, no more unions problems AND more productive companies.

It is a common problem among extremist who only see things as 'good or evil'. "Unions are evil", says Spudcon. It works only when you have a conclusion and don't even bother to first learn the whys. Spudcon - you don't even know who Deming is and yet know you are right. How sorry is that? Sorry enough to meet the definition of political extremist.

You saw a confrontational union? With your attitude, I am surprised they did not beat you up? Meanwhile, Chrysler has had no strikes since Lee Iacocca replace adversarial Townsend and Richardo - except in one plant. A Chrysler plant in IN struck for eight hours once. Clearly greed must have been apparent. Why? Workers wanted more work. The company obliged. No more disgruntled union workers. But Spudcon knows this could not be. Evil must be lurking somewhere in that union.

We also know Iran is evil. After all, their reform movement died completely as soon as George Jr declared them as an axis of evil. That proves Iran always was evil. The world according to Spudcon. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men. Spudcon knows. But he does not even know who Deming is. No problem. Such facts are only details - get in the way of knowing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The biggest problem with unions is the same problem with the country. 99% of the people don't want to get actively involved, let someone else do it.
Just pay your dues/taxes, maybe vote for the lesser of two evils running for office, bitch about the leadership, but don't bother doing the work to make it better.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The biggest problem with unions is the same problem with the country. 99% of the people don't want to get actively involved, let someone else do it.
Just pay your dues/taxes, maybe vote for the lesser of two evils running for office, bitch about the leadership, but don't bother doing the work to make it better.

Thank God I live in a right to work state. No unions.

[xoxoxoBruce]

So the massa can continue to abuse the peons.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So the massa can continue to abuse the peons.

We got no massa down here. Long gone. Other RTW states, plenty from the North:

The following 22 states are right-to-work states:

Alabama
Arizona - (established by state's Constitution, not by statute)
Arkansas - (established by state's Constitution, not by statute)
Florida - (established by state's Constitution, not by statute)
Georgia
Idaho
Iowa
Kansas
Louisiana
Mississippi
Nebraska
Nevada
North Carolina
North Dakota
Oklahoma - (established by state's Constitution, not by statute)
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Wyoming
The territory of Guam also has right-to-work laws.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Right to work states don't mean the workers can't form a union. It means if the majority of the employees choose to do so, an individual can opt out of membership and paying dues.
The people that choose to opt out, still receive the union won benefits, and in most cases the union's protection from unfair labor practices.

[xoxoxoBruce]

My Dad was on the contractors side of the table, negotiating with the plumbers Union, although he was a dues paying, non-voting, member of that union.
He complained the contractors always gave in too easily, because they figured they were all paying the same rate, and the profits were usually figured as a percentage of the total cost of doing the job. The higher the cost, the higher the profit.

The Automobile companies, pre-foreign competition, were probably the same way. Then when they had to compete, they told the unions, we'll give you a little money now, but we'll take care of you when you retire, which the unions accepted. Remember, the highest paid autoworkers are in Europe, plus they get socialized health care.

But instead of funding the promises, and making capital improvements for better efficiency, the car makers blew their profits on bloated middle management, golden parachutes and phony spreadsheets for wall street.
Now they are telling the unions, uh, so sorry, we can't keep the promises those rich retired guys made.

Like I said before

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The biggest problem with unions is the same problem with the country. 99% of the people don't want to get actively involved, let someone else do it.
Just pay your dues/taxes, maybe vote for the lesser of two evils running for office, bitch about the leadership, but don't bother doing the work to make it better.

[lookout123]

I'm not disagreeing with you Bruce, the companies made the promises they aren't fulfilling. My beef is that the Union leadership KNEW it then and did nothing about it. They went back to the membership and said "Look at these great new things we've gotten for you", knowing damn good and well that they'd never get it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I don't doubt that. That's what happens when the membership just go along and let the other guy get involved.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I'm not disagreeing with you Bruce, the companies made the promises they aren't fulfilling. My beef is that the Union leadership KNEW it then and did nothing about it. They went back to the membership and said "Look at these great new things we've gotten for you", knowing damn good and well that they'd never get it.

How about also taking your union money and giving it to political operatives who you don't support.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's illegal. There are separate deductions you can make for political action, that's strictly voluntary and listed separately from dues.