Smooth Running Democracies

[lookout123]

Improve it all you want but always with the knowledge that the participants who are strong enough to stand on their own can walk away from the table anytime they please.

Women and Black votes? That came through a lot of fighting but in the end succeeded because it was undeniable to enough people that they were people too, and as such should have the same rights and privileges extended to them under the constitution.

You are asking that someone here in the US sacrifice sovereignty in exchange for...what? What tangible benefit can be given? What must be given in exchange? Certainly some form of international taxation - the smaller poorer nations will certainly expect to be brought up to the standards of the first world. Government organizations only know how to solve problems through one route, throw money at the problem and hope it goes away. That just won't fly when it comes to the vote.

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Government organizations only know how to solve problems through one route, throw money at the problem and hope it goes away. That just won't fly when it comes to the vote.

There are many people in Government who know how to solve problems with more then just "throwing money at it", and hoping the problems go away. Many, many care about people and finding solutions in their particular field of endeavor.

This way that I see the term government used, I don't like it. The government is a large corporation, full of people. Some are honest, selfless servants, others are not. Most of the people toiling away on our behalf deserve our respect. The government in our country is not out to get us, it's out to serve us...collectively.

Is it perfect? No. Is it possible to be perfect? No. Can we serve and please all people at all times? No. This whole idea that "the government" is bad, only spends money, doesn't know what is going on, this huge intangible thing that is out to get us; it's a little off track.

[classicman]

It's probably a lot off track, but there has been so much "abuse" reported. Rather there has been so much "abuse" reported ad nauseum, that the perception seemingly has become the reality. At least at the top.

[regular.joe]

Yea, I suppose perception is reality. At least in many instances I could think of. I just wanted to interject some perspective. Well, at least my perspective, which is always worth about $.02.

[regular.joe]

Also, now that I'm thinking about it. Non-abuse doesn't get reported. If all we go on is what gets reported we have a skewed view of things indeed.

[classicman]

And thats the problem. I mean think about it. How many Americans go home after work and watch network tv shows straight thru till bedtime. All they see is Entertainment Tonight then some lame-ass sitcoms followed by the evening news. Of course the news is filled with rape, murder, fire, rape, murder, fire then the sports followed by the weather and a lil feel good 30 second spot at the end. Ugghh What brain rot that causes.
Think about it - they could be here on the cellar learning from AD and Radar instead. Wait I um ....

Originally Posted by ZenGum

The UN is not effectively stopping war and human misery caused by international non-cooperation. It may be limiting these ills a little but isn't doing a very good job.

But why do people therefore conclude it should be abolished or abandoned?

My tap isn't pouring enough water into my sink, therefore I should turn it off and give up.
No, my tap isn't pouring enough water into my sink, therefore I should try turning it on harder, and if that doesn't work, get a new and bigger pipe put in and use that.

Having an effective planetary government would, I believe, be a good thing if it were done right, for the same reasons local and national governments are in general good things. True, the UN isn't delivering what we want from a global government. So what we need to do is make it work better. It might take substantial reform. It might take starting over from scratch. There are many issues and problems and dangers. But I can think of few things more important for human civilization than this.

Bravo!

Originally Posted by lookout123

If you live in one of the more powerful prosperous nation why in the world would you want your nation to submit to an international organization with power to enforce what they vote on democratically?

Because balance and self-discipline are both part of what democracy stands for.

First of all you must agree that democracy is there for ALL THE PEOPLE (one man-one vote) to have their say and then "the majority" will have a voice in the power to "do the right thing" for the benefit of its' people. If you don't agree with that then you can just as well ignore the rest of this post.

Secondly, it is very well understood that what we do (as any one nation) actually affects the world, i.e. every nation - in one way or another. Some of our national actions affect the world more than other actions - such as war and the invironment (air, water, ozone, etc) with respects to the economy, global warming, ethnic preservation, etc. etc. etc. In the same way that a proper democratic nation solves its' national problems in a constructive, meaningful manner - so too do international bodies of government. The word "government" means just that. To oversee the real-life situation for the benefit of the human race. Therefore, international organizations must eventually become the most important governing body on this earth - or we will perish. This ought to be clear to everyone and I'm surprised that it is not so.

The U.N. (as we will all agree) is lacking the right grit. This problem is partly due to one of the strongest members sabotaging the U.N.'s international efforts by doing exactly what "LOOKOUT" considers to be correct behaviour.

If I ignore your advice to "put the gun back in the holster", and shoot my brother dead anyway, should I claim that you are to blame for my brother's death? That is (more or less) what the U.S. is doing. The U.N. forbade the Americans to invade Irak - on false pretenses. The Amercians invaded Irak anyway and then critisized the U.N. for being an inadequate organization.

The Americans talk of leaving the U.N. and I'm not completely convinced that it wouldn't be a good thing for the rest of the world. Any thoughts on that, anyone? What would be the advantages versus the disadvantages for the rest of the world?

[Ibby]

What you fail to understand, AD, is...

Americans don't give a shit about the rest of the world, except that the rest of the world is where all their shit comes from.
As long as vietnam keeps makin' cheap t-shirts, as long as china keeps making cheap gadgets, as long as germany keeps making really fucking expensive cars, as long as japan keeps making video games... Americans dont give a shit.

Originally Posted by Ibram

What you fail to understand, AD, is...

Americans don't give a shit about the rest of the world, except that the rest of the world is where all their shit comes from.
As long as vietnam keeps makin' cheap t-shirts, as long as china keeps making cheap gadgets, as long as germany keeps making really fucking expensive cars, as long as japan keeps making video games... Americans dont give a shit.

Thank you Ibram!

I'm finally starting to learn something!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

...if we are to create a working world government.

Hopefully that will never happen!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

The Americans talk of leaving the U.N. and I'm not completely convinced that it wouldn't be a good thing for the rest of the world. Any thoughts on that, anyone? What would be the advantages versus the disadvantages for the rest of the world?

Who cares? If we are such a bad place, filled with all these bad people, doing bad things to the rest of the world, and we have such a poor set of standards of democracy, why would the world care if we left the UN. You can't have it both ways. You can't expect us to continue to pour our tax dollars into that Hell Hole {UN} and expect us not to have a say in how things are done and how money is spent. You don't want to tell us how to do things in your country but you turn right around and try to tell us how to do business. If I had my way I would cut off the UN completely and then kick their HQ out of New York and let them trundle off to Europa to find a new home. We really need to start to cut of much of our international funding and bring that money home to fix our own problems.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Who cares?

Then why did you post this rubbish in this thread? I think that you are a very confused person.

Close your eyes and repeat after me ....... I have the will-power to shut off my computer ... I have the will-power to shut off my computer ... I have the will-power to shut off my computer ... I have the will-power to shut off my computer ... I have the will-power to shut off my computer ... I have the will-power to shut off my computer ... I have the will-power to shut off my computer ...

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

Then why did you post this rubbish in this thread? I think that you are a very confused person.

Not rubbish, and not confused. I think people who live in other countries find it very easy to trash people and places that they don't understand. We do it all the time, just look at the French.

[DanaC]

Its easy to point at the USA and say "bad America, you don't follow the UN", but geez... not many other nations do either. We're not the only nation to not ratify environmental treaties. Were not the only one that uses military power. Were just the easiest to pick on.

That wasn't my intention at all. I fully agree with your analysis of the situation. I was merely pointing out that it's not a case of the UN as some external body, imposing its will on America. America is a part of the UN and was instrumental in its founding, along with the concept of international law by which (in theory) all signatories abide.

I am in no doubt that in practice it is deeply flawed. I am in no doubt that countries act first and foremost with their own nationa interest as their paramount consideration.