Smooth Running Democracies

Griff · 01-01-2008, 10:26 AM

Kenya death toll seen at 250

Pakistan decides "in principle" to delay poll

Democracy is not a panacea. Democracy is just one way that a stable society can govern itself. In unstable societies it is just another way to continue instability.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-01-2008, 11:36 AM

NOOOOOO!!!! It is the undemocracies that are the problem and I will not stop until every fascist, commie, monarch, and every other type of undemocrat is squashed beneath my feet.

Undertoad · 01-01-2008, 12:13 PM

Guys, the shittiest free-market Democracy in the world is

Albania

Featured in P.J. O'Rourke's book "Eat The Rich" which I highly recommend. It was his description of Albania that kind of opened my eyes that free-market Democracy is not the tonic UG thinks it is.

The nature of the people is the nature of the nation. O'Rourke offers free Albania and unfree Sweden and guess where we'd all prefer to live?

Griff · 01-01-2008, 12:27 PM

Well Albanian Bikini Team doesn't ring a bell, does it?

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

free-market Democracy is not the tonic

Great, what do you propose over our current system? Please be as specific as possible.

Griff · 01-01-2008, 01:49 PM

I believe he is saying that our national character is such that we'd be pretty stable no matter what our form of government. Democracy is fine and mostly workable for us. Others' mileage may vary.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-01-2008, 02:22 PM

We cherish the individual freedoms, autonomy, and privacy, this democracy called the USA, provides. Probably most of us take for granted, a great deal more than the criminals, illegal aliens, gang bangers and terrorists.

Why there ought to be a law.... but not one that applies to me.

Undertoad · 01-01-2008, 02:26 PM

There is no need for us to change.

For centuries and centuries, through biblical times, civilization's great question is, "What set of laws shall make us successful?"

If only we could stop certain behaviors and encourage others, we'd be golden!

In truth, Griff has it: in cultures that have mastered Democracy, the laws are just an extension of the people, and not the other way round.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-01-2008, 02:35 PM

Oh, I agree. The more lawless the people, the more laws are passed. But the lawless ignore them anyway, so they only oppress the rest.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-01-2008, 02:54 PM

Getting to the Kenya one. I don't think our set political boundaries are helping at all. Honestly, the only way Africa can get rid of the problems we gave them is to make their own boundaries. But that is only effective if we pull out from Africa, and by that I mean all influence and let them take care of their resources. Then, there will be many fights and genocides (see Europe 700-1950), and we will have relative peace afterwards.

Somehow I don't see that happening...

TheMercenary · 01-01-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Getting to the Kenya one. I don't think our set political boundaries are helping at all. Honestly, the only way Africa can get rid of the problems we gave them is to make their own boundaries. But that is only effective if we pull out from Africa, and by that I mean all influence and let them take care of their resources. Then, there will be many fights and genocides (see Europe 700-1950), and we will have relative peace afterwards.

Somehow I don't see that happening...

It will never happen, like the Middle East coruption in Africa is a part of the culture, as is peace through superior firepower.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-02-2008, 12:33 AM

But you could say that about 7th-21th century Europe too.

01-04-2008, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

Democracy ................. In unstable societies it is just another way to continue instability.

Exactly.

01-04-2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

Democracy is fine and mostly workable for us. Others' mileage may vary.

Agreed. That "mileage" may vary due to the example set by those countries that claim to be democratic but carry on as fascists.

Much of the Arab population of the world are anti-democratic because they see the treacherous deeds commited by the U.S. (self-proclaimed "leader of democracy") and they're left thinking ... "If that's what democracy is then I want nothing to do with it".

I think what you wrote about "democracy and unstable societies" applies very well here. The U.S. is such an extremely unstable democracy that its' democratic principles are dubious to say the least.

DanaC · 01-04-2008, 03:56 AM

Nevertheless Dr, the US is an extremely stable nation. There are few riots, and crime is just that: crime; not the sectarian killing fields of less stable nations.

Y'know I'm rarely reluctant to have a pop at the American political zeitgeist....but 'carry on as fascists'? 'Violent, morally dubious, imperialists' I can see a case for, but fascists?

And I do not believe for one second that Arab populations are anti-democratic because of America's example. If they are voicing that then they are voicing it as an excuse. An excuse to adhere to socio-political systems which really do border on the fascistic (in some cases) albeit of a religious bent.

The arab nations have many genuine grievances, often against the US and the UK, but America is not to blame for their choice of political system. They may have provided a contributary factor in creating the landscape out of which those systems grow and in which the decisions are made, but that is all.

01-01-2008, 10:26 AM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Smooth Running Democracies Kenya death toll seen at 250 Pakistan decides "in principle" to delay poll Democracy is not a panacea. Democracy is just one way that a stable society can govern itself. In unstable societies it is just another way to continue instability. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-01-2008, 12:27 PM	#4
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Well Albanian Bikini Team doesn't ring a bell, does it? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-01-2008, 01:49 PM	#6
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I believe he is saying that our national character is such that we'd be pretty stable no matter what our form of government. Democracy is fine and mostly workable for us. Others' mileage may vary. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-01-2008, 02:22 PM	#7
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	We cherish the individual freedoms, autonomy, and privacy, this democracy called the USA, provides. Probably most of us take for granted, a great deal more than the criminals, illegal aliens, gang bangers and terrorists. Why there ought to be a law.... but not one that applies to me. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

01-01-2008, 02:35 PM	#9
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Oh, I agree. The more lawless the people, the more laws are passed. But the lawless ignore them anyway, so they only oppress the rest. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

01-01-2008, 11:36 AM	#2
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	NOOOOOO!!!! It is the undemocracies that are the problem and I will not stop until every fascist, commie, monarch, and every other type of undemocrat is squashed beneath my feet.

01-01-2008, 12:13 PM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Guys, the shittiest free-market Democracy in the world is Albania Featured in P.J. O'Rourke's book "Eat The Rich" which I highly recommend. It was his description of Albania that kind of opened my eyes that free-market Democracy is not the tonic UG thinks it is. The nature of the people is the nature of the nation. O'Rourke offers free Albania and unfree Sweden and guess where we'd all prefer to live?

01-01-2008, 02:26 PM	#8
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	There is no need for us to change. For centuries and centuries, through biblical times, civilization's great question is, "What set of laws shall make us successful?" If only we could stop certain behaviors and encourage others, we'd be golden! In truth, Griff has it: in cultures that have mastered Democracy, the laws are just an extension of the people, and not the other way round.

01-01-2008, 02:54 PM	#10
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Getting to the Kenya one. I don't think our set political boundaries are helping at all. Honestly, the only way Africa can get rid of the problems we gave them is to make their own boundaries. But that is only effective if we pull out from Africa, and by that I mean all influence and let them take care of their resources. Then, there will be many fights and genocides (see Europe 700-1950), and we will have relative peace afterwards. Somehow I don't see that happening...

01-02-2008, 12:33 AM	#12
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	But you could say that about 7th-21th century Europe too.

01-04-2008, 03:56 AM	#15
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Nevertheless Dr, the US is an extremely stable nation. There are few riots, and crime is just that: crime; not the sectarian killing fields of less stable nations. Y'know I'm rarely reluctant to have a pop at the American political zeitgeist....but 'carry on as fascists'? 'Violent, morally dubious, imperialists' I can see a case for, but fascists? And I do not believe for one second that Arab populations are anti-democratic because of America's example. If they are voicing that then they are voicing it as an excuse. An excuse to adhere to socio-political systems which really do border on the fascistic (in some cases) albeit of a religious bent. The arab nations have many genuine grievances, often against the US and the UK, but America is not to blame for their choice of political system. They may have provided a contributary factor in creating the landscape out of which those systems grow and in which the decisions are made, but that is all.

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