There are no illegal immigrants in America

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Prove it with objective facts.

[Ibby]

NO CUZ THE GUBMENT GIVN ME STUF TAKS AWAY MY RITES

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Radar

Option 2 and 3 are the same to me.

Then why would you be fighting to switch from one to the other? Fight about the social programs first, if that's what you want, then immigration will magically take care of itself.

Originally Posted by Radar

And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Yes, we've had that discussion many times. It's one of the ones where I can provide lots of references, and you provide none. I'm not bothering again. Let's stick with the hypothetical/philosophical argument for once, shall we?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Then why would you be fighting to switch from one to the other? Fight about the social programs first, if that's what you want, then immigration will magically take care of itself.

I say the quickest way to get rid of the social programs is to make everyone scared the immigrants are out to get 'em. Open the floodgates, and if people start to feel the pinch, they'll end the programs.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Yes, we've had that discussion many times. It's one of the ones where I can provide lots of references, and you provide none. I'm not bothering again. Let's stick with the hypothetical/philosophical argument for once, shall we?

I don't recall that you and I have had any conversations. I've presented proof many times over in threads.

Here's a link to one of the many articles I've linked to in the past...

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/200...contribute.php

[Aliantha]

OK, I'm just a little bit troubled by anyone saying taxing isn't fair in a society.

How can the government build roads and basic infrastructure etc if the community doesn't contribute?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

OK, I'm just a little bit troubled by anyone saying taxing isn't fair in a society.

How can the government build roads and basic infrastructure etc if the community doesn't contribute?

Before 1913, we had no income taxes. We had roads, schools, hospitals, post offices, etc.

In fact 100% of the Constitutional parts of our government could be paid for using only the tariffs and excise taxes already collected without raising them even a penny.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by Radar

Before 1913, we had no income taxes. We had roads, schools, hospitals, post offices, etc.

In fact 100% of the Constitutional parts of our government could be paid for using only the tariffs and excise taxes already collected without raising them even a penny.

Before 1913, most people didn't have cars and roads were not maintained as they are now. Hospitals and schools etc were funded (largely) by private entities or churches.

Unless your country is living in surplus (and we all know it's not) on a continual basis, I don't think your government can afford not to tax people, and even if it were, it'd have to be a huge surplus.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Before 1913, most people didn't have cars and roads were not maintained as they are now. Hospitals and schools etc were funded (largely) by private entities or churches.

Unless your country is living in surplus (and we all know it's not) on a continual basis, I don't think your government can afford not to tax people, and even if it were, it'd have to be a huge surplus.

It doesn't matter what the conditions of the roads were in 1913, because our current excise taxes and tariffs collected can pay for the roads as they currently are. Also, hospitals and schools SHOULD be funded entirely by private funds.

Government should never have a "surplus". In should never have a single dime that it doesn't require to carry out only what is listed in the Constitution and NOTHING ELSE.

America's military should be 25% of its current size and each and every single U.S. military base outside of our own borders should be closed immediately and permanently. All government organizations or programs not enumerated in the Constitution should be eliminated including welfare, Medicare, Social Security, public education, business and farm subsidies, foreign aid, BATF, IRS, CIA, DEA, FBI, NSA, FCC, FDA, BLM, Homeland Security, ICE, etc.

Then our federal government would be doing what it should...staying out of our business and defending America. We'd have a legislature, a judicial system, a president, roads, a strong defensive military, etc.

We'd be more free, those in need would get more help than they do now, we'd have better schools, a better healthcare system, etc.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

Before 1913, we had no income taxes. We had roads, schools, hospitals, post offices, etc.

In fact 100% of the Constitutional parts of our government could be paid for using only the tariffs and excise taxes already collected without raising them even a penny.

I would venture to say that things have changed a little bit since 1913.

"Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, illegal immigration is a federal crime.

The code states: "Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both."

That illegal immigration is a crime has been the law since 1929. That folks buy into the fact that the first offense usually gets a "civil penalty" in the form of a fine leads them to believe that a misdemeanor is akin to a traffic citation. In reality, it is still a federal crime, but the penalty does not generally involve imprisonment. Subsequent offenses are supposed to be treated as federal felonies and do garner imprisonment."

[TheMercenary]

At least our state is trying to reign in these illegal immigrants, starting 1 Jan, 2008:

In addition, the GSICA forbids the state from contracting with employers who do not verify the immigration status of new employees. Section 2 of the GSICA requires an employer to verify the immigration status of new employees through a federal work authorization program that is operated by the United States Department of Homeland Security. The verification requirements will apply to contractors and subcontractors with 500 or more employees on July 1, 2007, to contractors or subcontractors with 100 or more workers on July 1, 2008; and, after July 1, 2009, all government contractors and subcontractors will be subject to the new laws. While Section 2 does not contain any provisions related to enforcement, it does require the Commissioner of Labor to promulgate the rules and regulations necessary to enforce the law and to publish them on the Georgia Department of Labor's Web site.

While the GSICA will certainly affect Georgia businesses, one must also be cognizant of existing federal laws, which also address the hiring of illegal immigrants. For example, pursuant to 8 U.S.C.A. ? 1324a, one who knowingly hires illegal immigrants may be subject to civil penalties ranging from $200 to $10,000 and criminal penalties that could include imprisonment.

Although the GSICA has been described by some as a "tough immigration law," the overall purpose behind the GSICA is to strike a balance between welcoming individuals that seek to legally live and work in Georgia, while protecting the rights of United States citizens. Either way, it is important for Georgia employers that have become increasingly dependant on immigrant or migrant labor to determine how the new laws will affect their businesses.

http://www.wikigwinnett.com/content....TOKEN=48059084

[TheMercenary]

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=420155&postcount=16

Heh, yea, sure this guy and his illegal mates have contributed enough to make up for the loss.

[TheMercenary]

Number of Illegal Aliens in the Country: 21,013,427.
Money Wired to Mexico City since January 2006: $34,648,085,563.
Cost of Social Security Services for Illegal Aliens since 1996: $397,465,864,322.
Number of Children of Illegal Aliens in Public Schools: 4.071,971.
Cost of Illegal Aliens Incarcerated since 2001: $1,437,741,781.
Number of Illegal Aliens Incarcerated: 341,854.
Number of Illegal Alien Fugitives: 653,088.
Skilled Jobs Taken by Illegal Aliens: 10,052,905.
Anchor babies since 2002: 2,045,584.

Figures can trick your eyes. Take particular note that some of the figures reflect BILLIONS not millions of dollars – and that the third item exceeds one-third of a TRILLION dollars. Can you imagine how much it will cost taxpayers if we triple the number of illegals entering this country?

http://immigrationcounters.com/datasource.html

[classicman]

from immigrationcounters.com

As a result of illegal immigration some government agencies have benefited from growth in their programs to meet the expanding demands of their services. Some businesses are temporarily benefiting from illegal hiring. However, because of the increased costs of social services, law enforcement, lost revenue due to displaced legal hires, lost revenue from tax fraud and remittances, no sound research supports a net financial gain to the country. There are no free social services, those costs are shifted over into higher taxes and insurance premiums. Non-profit services provided to illegal immigrants shifts resources that could be used for legal immigrants and citizens. The majority of research finds that illegal immigration is bad for America and often the illegal immigrants themselves. The intent of the immigration laws and that of the nation's founders are being violated on a scale few could have imagined. It may be presumptuous for the government to assume it can implement a new and expanded amnesty guest worker program when its been unable or unwilling to manage the existing immigration laws.

My bold for emphasis.

[Aliantha]

So after you overthrow the government and let all the immigrants in, are you going to share your backyard with them Radar?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

So after you overthrow the government and let all the immigrants in, are you going to share your backyard with them Radar?

Only if they want to rent it. Did people have to share their backyards with the Irish, the Dutch, the Italians, the Germans, the English, the Greeks, the Russians, the Polish, etc.?

All of these people came in greater numbers than the Hispanic immigrants from a percentage of our total population standpoint, and they turned out to be a net positive for America just as the undocumented Mexican immigrants are. They worked to build a better life for themselves, and their loved ones, and sent money to their own country when they could. There's certainly no problem with that.