Seriousness That Changed You

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Jackie is currently housing a girl whose parents threw her out for not accepting Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior.

Justin chose not to do that either, but that's not why I kicked him out.

Of course she was 18 and there were no necklaces involved.

I really don't undertand why everyone is focused on the necklace and is completely ignoring everything else.

You want to parent that way, don't come lookin' to me for advice.

Parent what way, exactly? Demanding a minimum of respect? Not tolerating him cursing me out? Letting him go to Dave's as opposed to foster care?

Jackie knows how I support the strong single moms with button-pushin' boys, but only the ones who take kids in, not the ones who throw 'em out as a parenting method.

I didn't throw him out as a parenting method, it was that or foster care. Living with the man he'd called dad for 12 years or going to the home of complete strangers until he was 21 years old (4 years at the time). Hmmmmm..

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I really don't undertand why everyone is focused on the necklace and is completely ignoring everything else.

Because in your telling of the tale the paper-clip necklace plays a pivotal role in the story.

I can't speak for the others, but your reported behavior in relation to this particular incident paints you a tad, with all due respect, bat-shit insane.

If he was seeing things that weren't there (schizophrenia, or schizo-type personality disorder?), that seems like it might've been time to send him for some therapy.

Also, you seem to see things in a very black and white way. Instead of being tolerant it seems like your modus-operandi is to cut deep and hard.

The kid didn't reach out to mend your relationship (not that the burden should fall to hard on someone who is still very young and probably doesn't understand how deeply he may regret the past)? He sounds damaged enough to not know how.

(This is all based on the last couple of OC's posts. I really am not sure I want to post it, but here it goes despite the misgivings.)

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by grant

Because in your telling of the tale the paper-clip necklace plays a pivotal role in the story.

It's pivotal in the sense that it was an open, in your face rebellion on his part. A rebellion he knew the consequences of before he started down that road. He made the choice to defy me, knowing what my reaction would be. It was this decision that set him on this path.

I can't speak for the others, but your reported behavior in relation to this particular incident paints you a tad, with all due respect, bat-shit insane.

I don't see it. I had told him and told him and he KNEW how I would react, he KNEW it meant he would have to leave. I told him that RIGHT before he made his decision! Am I supposed to then say, oh, well, I guess I shouldn't do what I've told you time and time I again I would do in this situation. I'm sorry, I would not, and IMO, should not have relented and accepted this openly hostile, disrespectful behavior.

If I tell you every day that if you press the blue button I will slap you, and one day you press the button, if I'm consistant, I need to slap you. What happens if I don't slap you? You can't trust my word, and then ANYTHING I've said up to that point, and anything after is nullified.

He pressed the button. I slapped him.

If he was seeing things that weren't there (schizophrenia, or schizo-type personality disorder?), that seems like it might've been time to send him for some therapy.

Two things here.... One, I had tried to send him for therapy twice before, for the whole back story purposes, and he lied so much to the therapists that they told me not to bother to waste my money, because he didn't want help and until he did there was nothing they could do.

Two, because of my prior beliefs, and the beliefs held by the person that made the necklace, I was pretty sure that a mental disorder was not the case here. Demons exist, whether you believe it or not. Been there, seen that, and know how to fix it. Can't fix it unless the person involved wants it fixed, too.

Also, you seem to see things in a very black and white way. Instead of being tolerant it seems like your modus-operandi is to cut deep and hard.

This is pretty accurate. I tend to see things in those terms. I do see in grey in things, but generally it's on a spectrum, and on one side of the middle line or the other. It's been a hard life, with hard experiences that not many people (God willing) will have to endure. (If you didn't read the whole thread, you're missing that part of the story.) Life is hard, and you get bitch slapped when you make the wrong decisions. I learned it early, and I tried, God knows I tried, to warn him. To tell him when I screwed up. To show him the potholes in an effort to get him to go around them. But he didn't believe me.

The kid didn't reach out to mend your relationship (not that the burden should fall to hard on someone who is still very young and probably doesn't understand how deeply he may regret the past)? He sounds damaged enough to not know how.

First, I don't consider 17.5 to be "very young". My duaghter is 9, she is very young. He was man enough to call me a mother fucking bitch in my house, he can be man enough to at least apologize. (Which to this day he's never done, even when my husband and mother told him it might help.) He's man enough to have a child and he's willing (see emails) to go toe to toe to keep it. But he's not man enough to send me an email to let me know how he's doing? I have a problem with your assertion.

(This is all based on the last couple of OC's posts. I really am not sure I want to post it, but here it goes despite the misgivings.)

It just occurred to me that I'm doing alot of defending myself. I asked for opinion, and I got it, and now I feel like I'm arguing. In the great big scheme of things I guess I was looking for more Els and less UT. My main worry here is that you don't understand everything that was going on. The necklace wasn't the ONLY thing, it was the LAST of a long line of things, and the FIRST time he was openly defiant.

I guess what I really wanted suggestion on was the email portion of the posts, not "Gee, you sure fucked up by letting it get to this point." I figured that part out for myself, my question is, knowing what you know, what course do I take now?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I don't see it. I had told him and told him and he KNEW how I would react, he KNEW it meant he would have to leave. I told him that RIGHT before he made his decision!

That's part of the insanity. You told him that if he wore a necklace his girlfriend made for him, you would kick him out of the house.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

That's part of the insanity. You told him that if he wore a necklace his girlfriend made for him, you would kick him out of the house.

I feel like this is a gross oversimplification. The issue, in the end, is not the necklace, it is the defiance of parental authority. The subject matter is largely irrelevant. If her son chose to tell her to stuff it, then he is, defacto, accepting the consequences of what comes after.

I've been down to this point countless times with my kids...I think something should be one way, and they want it another way, and so we arrive at the "Where you gonna live and whatcha gonna eat?" point. Move out, and do what you wish, and I'll wish you the best. Stay here, and I have the final say. This is non-neogtiable. If you don't have that line with your older children, you *will* get used, walked on, abused, swindled and generally compromised - not because your kids don't love you, but because they have not yet learned about give and take, mutual backscratching, and all the other social niceties that adults have experienced.

Kids are used to being supported, cared for, taking a free ride. So, when they finally think they are old enough to do what they want, they tend to not remember that there's countless other responsibilities that go along with that freedom. All they know is what the child learned, and that doesn't include not having mommy or daddy fix their screwups, tend their booboos, give them allowance money.

It is a difficult transition for everyone involved. Could OC have handled things a little better? Sure. We all can. But her standing on principles of respect and obedience to a child living under her roof is not at all out of line.

[Shawnee123]

So many adages might fit here, if I had an opinion, which I don't:

Apples don't fall far from trees

We reap what we sow

Having said that, I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.

Just a small viewpoint in a huge issue.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Apples don't fall far from trees

= He has a lot of his bio-dad (I just can't call him a father, sorry) in him. Both genetically and mentally. What the hell happened to this poor kid during years 1 thru 7???? I hate to even try to imagine.

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

We reap what we sow

=And partially what his bio-dad sowed. This is not all your fault, but it is true that the first few years are, by far, the most important in childrearing. I think its safe to assume that your son got none of that for far too long. Perhaps the damage was already done, more like highly probable.

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.

My mom would have bitch-slapped me across the room if I ever said anything even remotely close to what your son said to you. Although again imagine what his first seven years were like and how HE was treated. All the abuse he probably endured both mentally and physically - perhaps even sexually. I am not a doctor, but this outrageous behavior sounds an awful lot like it may have been caused from some sort of abuse.

I don't think you were inn a position to really "succeed" as a mother. but that said this kid has NO IDEA how to reach out to, love or trust you or anyone else for that matter. He probably related to "Miss Thang" because she was the closest thing to his bio-dad that he found. All he was (probably) taught at a very young age was hate, negativity and abuse.

Oh, and where was he prior to and during the whole murder thing? Any chance he knew this was happening or overheard his bio-dad
planning it or feels somehow responsible for his bio-dad killing the man you were to marry? Or responsible that his father killed him period? Ruining "everyone's" lives. Thats a hell of a burden to put on a kid.

Last thing a 17 1/2 yr old is a KID. I've got three of my own 18, 16, 14 and their ages have less to do with their maturity level than the sum of their life experiences.

Sorry so long - I just went off on you and I don't mean it to come across that way.
Compassionate hugs to you I'm really sorry for your troubles.

[LabRat]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.

I am making the assumption here that at some point growing up you said something that was disrespectful to your parents, and they punished/disciplined you.

1) How did they do so, if you remember.
2) What would they have done if that hadn't corrected your behavior?
3) What would they have done if #2 didn't correct your behavior?
Repeat until your parents are at their wits end, and have run out of ideas.

We are all doing the best with what tools we have.