Who does homosexuality hurt?

[DanaC]

I'll also add as one final (and slightly mischievous) point:

reread this portion of MTPs post; but replace MTP as the narrator with a young moslem woman. I have no doubt that there would be voices raised in anger at the moslem faith, and at a culture that disregards females. There is precious little anger in this thread at the Christian faith and a religious culture that disregarded MTP in decisions on her own life.

My parents wanted me to GET MARRIED AT 18! They think me getting a college degree is probably a waste of time. They believe my ex-boyfriend "owns a piece of my soul" because we had sex. That although I was terribly unhappy with him, and with him mainly because he was the first guy to ever pay attention to me, THAT I SHOULD STILL MARRY HIM AT 18! That I should get a SECOND job, and support HIM through school.

I spent FOUR YEARS on anti-depressants, not able to look up from my feet, hiding in my closet or a book. I was suicidal, and took pain-killers recreational. When I wasn't doing these things, I was goin to church or youth group, or praying to God. Trying to be a good Christian, and not understanding why my heart was still devoid, when I had all the "faith" I could muster. When I begged my parents; no I did not "throw a fit," I wrote out all of my arguments, asked them to sit down with me and tried to discuss the issue with them, it ended in literal begging, I begged them to let me stop youth group. I was endlessly harassed at it, not just by other kids, by the youth minister herself. They knew this, they believed it. They made me keep going even though 9 out of 10 times I came home in a complete wreck.

[jinx]

I think you should practice before you preach. Especially about honesty.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by jinx

I think you should practice before you preach. Especially about honesty.

Shouldn't we all.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by jinx

I think you should practice before you preach. Especially about honesty.

I don't understand this statement.

[morethanpretty]

AMEN!!!

[DanaC]

Why are you talking about money again Merc? She didn't say the problem was her parents not giving her money. Finance is just one of the many areas in which a parent can assist their child.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Why are you talking about money again Merc? She didn't say the problem was her parents not giving her money. Finance is just one of the many areas in which a parent can assist their child.

From what I could see of Mercs last few posts, he agreed with MTP about money.

[Sundae]

I've seen the golden child phenomenon in at least two other families.
The one I know the best is where the eldest was a daughter, carried to term after a number of previous miscarriages. After only another year and no miscarriages - another girl. Then eight more years of trying, failed IVF then succesful IVF and many complications and the last couple of weeks in hospital, twin boys born prematurely.

The older girl got everything she wanted.
Luckily for her parents she was a hard worker, not academic but beautiful, which is often easier for a girl.
She was her Daddy's angel, and although very good natured she did know how to manipulate him.
She got a job working for her father and although he cut her no slack (he was very professional) she got a company car, a salary nearly 50% above the going rate for that position and when she moved out of home the company (builders and fitters) did all the work on her house and only charged for materials, allowing her to buy a bad quality house with a significantly low mortgage.

The twin sons decided to go to University. Their fees were fully covered by their parents so they would not come out of Uni in debt. Their parents bought houses in each of the separate University towns because they viewed it as an investment (it was - the father knew the building trade well). They saw it as an issue of trust that the boys would manage the house and charge rent in order to cover household bills and living expenses. Of course they were still paid an allowance because it helped keep them focussed on their study. They were their Mother's Miracle Babies and she was so proud of them.

And the second daughter? My friend. She lived at home and went to the local Uni because her parents were worried she would run up debts if she moved away. Her Dad went with her to buy her first car (second hand from a private seller) but did no more to advise her - she bought it with savings she'd accrued working after school and through college.

She continued to work in a large supermarket to pay for her own socialising - okay her parents didn't charge her rent or a share of the bills, but neither did they ask her older sister for a contribution and she was working full time.

She had always shown herself to be financially reponsible, sensible, acedemic and hard working. I honestly believe that she slipped under their radar. They hadn't had to think about Uni with the eldest daughter - she barely made it out of High School. SO I know they were learning on the job as it were. They had 8 years of friends' experiences with their children and debts and dropping out to draw on by the time the boys went.

But deliberate or not, it seems sad that someone I knew as forceful, intelligent and an all round sparkling person because someone less when she walked in to the family home. I know - I lived there for a while. I saw the walls filled with photos of the beautiful one, with sports trophies of the boys. She had no resentment of the way her siblings were treated, but sometimes - just somethimes - when we were drunk and maudlin, she would wonder why they never did any of that for her, or asked her what she wanted, or said how proud they were at what she had achieved.

Anyway, they you go.
No-one can force a parent to treat children equally, to love them the same or even give them the same support and attention. But to me that's part of what trying to be a good parent is. I've been such a trial to mine and they still take me back in. Mum's admitted I've been the hardest to love just because I'm so much trouble, but I know she does, really.

[Aliantha]

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of weeks with regard to what responsibility a parent has to a child after it becomes an adult.

I tried to think back to when I first left school and got myself a full time job. I know that it was at that point that my parents stopped paying for things for me, although they did drop me to the train station etc because we were quite a way away from it. That was until I could get my car running, which my dad helped me with. During this time I had to pay board. Then I moved out of home, at which point my parents still continued to love me and care about what i was doing, but it was the final separation. They didn't approve of the choice I'd made, and it hurt them badly (there was a man involved) but they still supported me emotionally after the initial pain and hurt had settled on both sides.

When the relationship fell apart, I moved back to my mum's house and stayed there for a couple of years. My brother was still living there, and Mum was very glad I'd come home, but I was living there more as a housemate than a child. I paid my share of the bills and bought food etc and just generally lived there as a share house situation. I would not have dreamed of allowing my Mum to support me at that stage.

I moved out again after meeting the father of my two sons and lived with him for about 5 years. Had the kids and then the relationship turned to crap. I left him and lived somewhere else for a while and went into business with my Dad. We did that for a couple of years till I went back to Uni. By this time Mum was getting a bit frail. She'd already had one major cancer episode, and she asked if I'd move back and help her with the house and in return she'd help with the kids while I was studying.

At no time was she supporting me in any way other than emotionally. I was always quite conscious of keeping the finances completely separate and it worked out really well for us.

I would like to think that my kids would always know they could return to their home if they needed to, or if it seemed like the logical thing for all of us, but I'd also like to think that they'd have learned that I wouldn't appreciate freeloading. I've worked hard all my life to do the right thing by the people that love me and I've always shown my parents the respect they deserved. I hope that when my kids are older and they realise how I've struggled for them at times, they'll appreciate me enough to show me the same respect.

In the end, i think that's what it comes down to for me. Most parents will put up with just about anything from their kids, as long as the kids are respectful about what they expect and that they're honest about what's going on in their lives.

Of course there are some parents who don't fit this catagory and I guess that's pretty sad, but communication is the key.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last couple of weeks with regard to what responsibility a parent has to a child after it becomes an adult.

I tried to think back to when I first left school and got myself a full time job. I know that it was at that point that my parents stopped paying for things for me, although they did drop me to the train station etc because we were quite a way away from it. That was until I could get my car running, which my dad helped me with. During this time I had to pay board. Then I moved out of home, at which point my parents still continued to love me and care about what i was doing, but it was the final separation. They didn't approve of the choice I'd made, and it hurt them badly (there was a man involved) but they still supported me emotionally after the initial pain and hurt had settled on both sides.

When the relationship fell apart, I moved back to my mum's house and stayed there for a couple of years. My brother was still living there, and Mum was very glad I'd come home, but I was living there more as a housemate than a child. I paid my share of the bills and bought food etc and just generally lived there as a share house situation. I would not have dreamed of allowing my Mum to support me at that stage.

I moved out again after meeting the father of my two sons and lived with him for about 5 years. Had the kids and then the relationship turned to crap. I left him and lived somewhere else for a while and went into business with my Dad. We did that for a couple of years till I went back to Uni. By this time Mum was getting a bit frail. She'd already had one major cancer episode, and she asked if I'd move back and help her with the house and in return she'd help with the kids while I was studying.

At no time was she supporting me in any way other than emotionally. I was always quite conscious of keeping the finances completely separate and it worked out really well for us.

I would like to think that my kids would always know they could return to their home if they needed to, or if it seemed like the logical thing for all of us, but I'd also like to think that they'd have learned that I wouldn't appreciate freeloading. I've worked hard all my life to do the right thing by the people that love me and I've always shown my parents the respect they deserved. I hope that when my kids are older and they realise how I've struggled for them at times, they'll appreciate me enough to show me the same respect.

In the end, i think that's what it comes down to for me. Most parents will put up with just about anything from their kids, as long as the kids are respectful about what they expect and that they're honest about what's going on in their lives.

Of course there are some parents who don't fit this catagory and I guess that's pretty sad, but communication is the key.

Nice post. I hope I can remain that supportive.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Nice post. I hope I can remain that supportive.

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to manage it.

[DanaC]

I am in total agreement Cicero. As soon as I read that post my hackles went up.


As for parental responsibility: I don't think anybody here is arguing that parents have a financial responsibility to adult children. That said, my mum and Dad have at times stepped in and helped out when I've been broke. Between my mum, myself and my brother (and even J, who has remained to all intents and purposes a member of the family despite our having split long ago and him now having another partner) there is a shared sense of responsibility. None of us have much more than we need for the lives we're leading. We don't have large amounts of money saved, we don't have high wages. My bro and his wife are doing ok, he is self-employed, she's a nurse; mum's on a pension and works intermittently with asylum seekers and refugees. J, like me, is a full-time student with part time earnings alongside.

We all help each other out when needed. There was a spell of about a year where I was just perma-broke, really struggling; between them mum, J and my Bro got me through that. This year I've had an easier time of it (marginally:P) and have been able to return the favour somewhat.

When J and I split and I needed somewhere to go, there was no question but that I'd stay at mum's til I got a place sorted. In typical fashion, the first place I went when i walked out of the door was mum's. It always is. To me, that is what families are.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I am in total agreement Cicero. As soon as I read that post my hackles went up.


As for parental responsibility: I don't think anybody here is arguing that parents have a financial responsibility to adult children. That said, my mum and Dad have at times stepped in and helped out when I've been broke. Between my mum, myself and my brother (and even J, who has remained to all intents and purposes a member of the family despite our having split long ago and him now having another partner) there is a shared sense of responsibility. None of us have much more than we need for the lives we're leading. We don't have large amounts of money saved, we don't have high wages. My bro and his wife are doing ok, he is self-employed, she's a nurse; mum's on a pension and works intermittently with asylum seekers and refugees. J, like me, is a full-time student with part time earnings alongside.

We all help each other out when needed. There was a spell of about a year where I was just perma-broke, really struggling; between them mum, J and my Bro got me through that. This year I've had an easier time of it (marginally:P) and have been able to return the favour somewhat.

When J and I split and I needed somewhere to go, there was no question but that I'd stay at mum's til I got a place sorted. In typical fashion, the first place I went when i walked out of the door was mum's. It always is. To me, that is what families are.

I agree. I think your parents home should always be a last resort refuge if you are really in trouble and they should be there for you. But their role should be helping you get back on your feet and out on your own again. I have a brother who freeloaded on my parents for years til they finally told him to leave. I hope I never have to deal with that issue.

[Sundae]

I was thinking about this thread in relation to going to church.
I know it would make my parents very happy.
I am trying to be a "good daughter" and just feeling round the edges of what that means at the moment.

I can't change myself into my sister, I won't marry the the man I meet who is prepared to take me on and squeeze out a couple of children so that I fit the "normal" daughter template [ETA - my sister didn't do this either!]. My parents would not want me to - they'd be happy if I was happy and although they would prefer a conventional life for me, they would never want me to pretend.

BUT
Along with other, more practical things I can sort out and will sort out, I know it would make them happy if I went to church. Of course the trouble is, I am an atheist. I really, really don't believe it - any of it. So that would make me a massive hypocrite, yes?

But then I think - well, as long as I don't do anything more than attend - and I certainly wouldn't take coommunion - then I'm just doing something for them. They don't really understand that I don't believe. They have never argued with me (or my brother) about not following the faith, because deep down they are sure they are right and we are communing with God in our own way, and will follow our own paths to him (pretty laid back for Catholics actually).

I think I will try Christmas Day and see how much of a worm it makes me feel.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I know it would make them happy if I went to church. Of course the trouble is, I am an atheist. I really, really don't believe it - any of it. So that would make me a massive hypocrite, yes?

No, it wouldn't. I go to church with my in-laws, and they know I am an atheist. I go in respect of their beliefs, in family solidarity, and to be polite. Frankly, I'd feel like a worm if I didn't go! Give it a try -- you may end up feeling virtuous to have made your parents feel good.

Of course, YMMV.