Who does homosexuality hurt?

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I only said that their actions can hurt parents and family and that they must accept the risk and responsibility that goes along with those actions. In some cases family may withdraw material supportand they should not be surprised by the results.

Actually you originally said:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I think if parents and family are not comfortable with choices you make as teens and young adults and you ignore other peoples feelings who support you, then you should really not be surprised when you loose that support, emotional, financial, educational, etc. So yea, you can hurt those around you, even if you don't mean to do it.

Which is what I was arguing mainly with you. That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, then by that action it shows their lack of love for you. Even if they don't agree with your lifestyle choice, your parents especially, have the responsibility to love you and support you in any way necessary. It doesn't matter if they agree or not, if its against their religion or not. No, perhaps a person should not be surprised if their family pulls support when they come out. That depends on the family, BUT that doesn't mean the family is not in the wrong. If the family is hurt by you being yourself in that way, then that is all on the family. They let themselves be hurt because they are too close minded to care that that is YOU, that you cannot act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person.
That has been all I have been saying, or trying to say at least.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

MTP opened this up to include many other things.

I did let you get me off on a tangent.

YOU keep bringing it back to money. I have already said, I've been financially independent since 18, by my own choice. My parent's didn't kick me out, although I might have killed my mom if I had stayed at the time, but I chose to move out. Even before that in high school I was supporting myself in ways most parents wouldn't make their children. I had to pay for my college classes and books even back then.

I'm gonna repeat one more time for you (a bit differently): support and success do not only mean money or finacial.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, then by that action it shows their lack of love for you.

Not necessarily. The amount of support given (I assume you are referring to financial here) does not equate with their love for the child. It seems as though you hav a very unusual set of circumstances within your situation. I still don't realy get what they are, but your parents love should never be based upon the amount of financial support they give you. Ya can't buy love. Emotional support is a totally different matter. Parents should invariably support their children in whatever endeavors the child chooses. Unless it is unhealthy, dangerous or illegal. Again though, I am not certain that these are really relevant to their love. Different parents parent differently.

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I had to pay for my college classes and books even back then.

Many children pay for their own tuition and/or books. I don't understand the relevance.

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I'm gonna repeat one more time for you (a bit differently): support and success do not only mean money or finacial.

What are you saying then? What are you looking for from your parents that they are apparently not providing, in your opinion?

When I was a teenager, I absolutely hated my father, or thought I did. I thought he favored my older brothers and gave them things that I didn't get. I believed that he talked to them about things and spent more time with them than with me. I carried a lot of ill conceived resentment toward him for many years. I had no idea what his motives were until I was much older and we talked it out. Only then after I matured did I understand his position and reasoning.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by classicman

The amount of support given (I assume you are referring to financial here) does not equate with their love for the child. It seems as though you hav a very unusual set of circumstances within your situation. I still don't realy get what they are, but your parents love should never be based upon the amount of financial support they give you. Ya can't buy love.

NO, I was specifically saying, again, that it IS NOT about finacial only. PLEASE classic read more carefully.

Originally Posted by classicman

Emotional support is a totally different matter. Parents should invariably support their children in whatever endeavors the child chooses. Unless it is unhealthy, dangerous or illegal. Again though, I am not certain that these are really relevant to their love. Different parents parent differently.

Again, that is what I said. That was my point.

Originally Posted by classicman

Many children pay for their own tuition and/or books. I don't understand the relevance.

I said, it was in HIGH SCHOOL. You would make your child pay college tuition when their in high school still? They made me pay for my own college, even though I explained to them that it saved time and money. I take the college course, I get dual credit (high school credit as well), therefore I wouldn't have to take essentially the same class over. They thought it was a waste, so the only way I could get it was by paying myself. BTW: My sis did the same thing, except they paid for it.

Originally Posted by classicman

What are you saying then? What are you looking for from your parents that they are apparently not providing, in your opinion?

When I was a teenager, I absolutely hated my father, or thought I did. I thought he favored my older brothers and gave them things that I didn't get. I believed that he talked to them about things and spent more time with them than with me. I carried a lot of ill conceived resentment toward him for many years. I had no idea what his motives were until I was much older and we talked it out. Only then after I matured did I understand his position and reasoning.

I am looking for the support that they clearly give my older brother and sister, and do not give me. Of course according to my older bro I "get away with things he never could." I don't know what those things are. He "got away with" wrecking 2 cars by pulling stupid stunts, living with a woman out of wedlock, sleeping around (before he got married), smoking cigarettes, smoking weed (in the house), underage drinking, drinking and driving....
Point is, I've done none of those things, except living with my partner out of wedlock. My parents have now let him move back twice w/o any conditions. I was supposed to move back (finalized it in mar with them), and instead they let him come back(in Oct he decided to get a car instead a of a house loan), therefore I can't.
Although, I don't think money=love. But the fact that they give them financial support I don't get, shows something is lacking, and its not me. To top it off, anything I try to do/want to do, gets shot down without question. The other two don't get nearly as much negativity about their ability to succeed as I do. If they do, my parent's choose to do it privately, whereas they don't mind publicly humiliating me.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

Which is what I was arguing mainly with you. That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, then by that action it shows their lack of love for you. Even if they don't agree with your lifestyle choice, your parents especially, have the responsibility to love you and support you in any way necessary. It doesn't matter if they agree or not, if its against their religion or not. No, perhaps a person should not be surprised if their family pulls support when they come out. That depends on the family, BUT that doesn't mean the family is not in the wrong. If the family is hurt by you being yourself in that way, then that is all on the family. They let themselves be hurt because they are too close minded to care that that is YOU, that you cannot act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person.
That has been all I have been saying, or trying to say at least.

So what would you say then to my grandmother who divorced my grandfather because he was an alcoholic? She tried to stick it out and support his efforts to get sober, but in the end she couldn't take any more and gave him ultimatum: me and the kids or alcohol. He chose to keep drinking and she left. Was she in the wrong for ending her support? He was addicted to alcohol and could not "act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person". Should she have been infinitely tolerant and accepting of his addiction because that's who he was? Supporting him even though he did horrible things that alcoholics tend to do and chose not to seriously change his lifestyle?

Or how about this: my parents paid for my brother's university education. He was expelled for failing 3 semesters and hid this fact from my parents until the day before we were planning on driving down for the graduation ceremonies. My parents were understandably furious at him for lying to them and deceiving them, wasting so much of their time, money, emotional and academic support on someone who didn't care enough to go to class. This was 2 almost two years ago and now he works temp agency jobs in an economically depressed area and is unwilling to move because of his friends in the area. Should my parents now be willing to give him all that support they once gave if he started taking classes again? After he lied, deceived, and took advantage of their trust and support before? Why should we, his family, go that extra mile if he is unwilling to uphold his end of the bargain and not be lazy?

There are limitations to what people can tolerate and should be expected to tolerate, just as there are limitations to how much support one family members needs to extend to another depending upon the situation.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

So what would you say then to my grandmother who divorced my grandfather because he was an alcoholic? She tried to stick it out and support his efforts to get sober, but in the end she couldn't take any more and gave him ultimatum: me and the kids or alcohol. He chose to keep drinking and she left. Was she in the wrong for ending her support? He was addicted to alcohol and could not "act any other way and be a happy fulfilled person". Should she have been infinitely tolerant and accepting of his addiction because that's who he was? Supporting him even though he did horrible things that alcoholics tend to do and chose not to seriously change his lifestyle?

Or how about this: my parents paid for my brother's university education. He was expelled for failing 3 semesters and hid this fact from my parents until the day before we were planning on driving down for the graduation ceremonies. My parents were understandably furious at him for lying to them and deceiving them, wasting so much of their time, money, emotional and academic support on someone who didn't care enough to go to class. This was 2 almost two years ago and now he works temp agency jobs in an economically depressed area and is unwilling to move because of his friends in the area. Should my parents now be willing to give him all that support they once gave if he started taking classes again? After he lied, deceived, and took advantage of their trust and support before? Why should we, his family, go that extra mile if he is unwilling to uphold his end of the bargain and not be lazy?

There are limitations to what people can tolerate and should be expected to tolerate, just as there are limitations to how much support one family members needs to extend to another depending upon the situation.

No, I am still talking about lifestyle choice in the instance of being homosexual. Not being an idiot and using people. "Any way necessary" sometimes means a kick in the ass, or an ultimatum, it can be defined and modified according to the specific people and needs. Again though, parent's have a responsibility to try to help their children, can't just walk away and refuse. That does NOT mean giving them money for nothing ect ect. Calling them on their birthday, asking them over for Christmas (at least sending them a card) ect ect, those are means of emotional support.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

No, I am still talking about lifestyle choice in the instance of being homosexual. Not being an idiot and using people. "Any way necessary" sometimes means a kick in the ass, or an ultimatum, it can be defined and modified according to the specific people and needs. Again though, parent's have a responsibility to try to help their children, can't just walk away and refuse. That does NOT mean giving them money for nothing ect ect. Calling them on their birthday, asking them over for Christmas (at least sending them a card) ect ect, those are means of emotional support.

Agreed, parents do that have that initial responsibility.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

Agreed, parents do that have that initial responsibility.

Key here. Pay attention.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

Which is what I was arguing mainly with you. That should person's family pull their support emotional, financial, educational, etc. , especially your parents because they have responsibility to you, .

Total and utter bull shit.