There are no illegal immigrants in America

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Radar

Option 2 and 3 are the same to me. I don't support social programs for citizens anymore than I support them for non-citizens. And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Arent you the one that halfway proved that the 'undocumented immigrants' dont pay taxes, because you dont pay taxes (or at least know how to very easily dodge them) cause you dont believe that taxes are legal?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Then why would you be fighting to switch from one to the other? Fight about the social programs first, if that's what you want, then immigration will magically take care of itself.

I say the quickest way to get rid of the social programs is to make everyone scared the immigrants are out to get 'em. Open the floodgates, and if people start to feel the pinch, they'll end the programs.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Yes, we've had that discussion many times. It's one of the ones where I can provide lots of references, and you provide none. I'm not bothering again. Let's stick with the hypothetical/philosophical argument for once, shall we?

I don't recall that you and I have had any conversations. I've presented proof many times over in threads.

Here's a link to one of the many articles I've linked to in the past...

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/200...contribute.php

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Arent you the one that halfway proved that the 'undocumented immigrants' dont pay taxes, because you dont pay taxes (or at least know how to very easily dodge them) cause you dont believe that taxes are legal?

No, I'm the one who showed that undocumented immigrants pay plenty of taxes even if they don't pay income taxes. Though the ones who borrow a social security number get regular jobs and income taxes are taken out of that paycheck including social security which they NEVER collect from.

[Aliantha]

OK, I'm just a little bit troubled by anyone saying taxing isn't fair in a society.

How can the government build roads and basic infrastructure etc if the community doesn't contribute?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

And for the record, undocumented immigrants contribute more to the economy than they use in services, and not just more....BILLIONS more. They are a net gain to the economy and tax base and therefore don't cost American citizens a single penny.

Prove it with objective facts.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

No, I'm the one who showed that undocumented immigrants pay plenty of taxes even if they don't pay income taxes. Though the ones who borrow a social security number get regular jobs and income taxes are taken out of that paycheck including social security which they NEVER collect from.

Most do not "borrow a social security number". Most work under the table for cash.

If the estimated net fiscal drain of $2,736 a year that each illegal household imposes on the federal treasury is multiplied by the nearly three million illegal households, the total cost comes to $10.4 billion a year. Whether one considers this to be a large sum or not is, of course, a matter of perspective. But, this figure is unambiguously negative and certainly not trivial. It is also worth remembering that these figures are only for the federal government and do not include any costs at the state or local level, where the impact is likely to be significant.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

The fact remains that they are not violating the law so they are LEGAL. The indisputable truth is that the federal government has no legitimate authority to create or enforce immigration laws and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a fool.

There is no question as to the legality of these immigrants because there are no illegal immigrants in America and there won't be unless the U.S. Constitution is amended to grant the federal government authority over immigration.

Any time anyone uses the term "illegal" to describe undocumented immigrants, they are lying. They most likely have an ax to grind in the form of racism or xenophobia.

What you state is opinion, not fact. I can tell you that the fact is that the arrest and detention powers of the illegal aliens entering the US illegally are real and legitimate. There is no whole scale release of these illegal immigrants based on legal appeal by contesting law you interpret it. If there is please provide objective facts which document these events.

Attempting to attack an argument based on accusations of "racism or xenophobia" is a straw man approach.

[TheMercenary]

At least our state is trying to reign in these illegal immigrants, starting 1 Jan, 2008:

In addition, the GSICA forbids the state from contracting with employers who do not verify the immigration status of new employees. Section 2 of the GSICA requires an employer to verify the immigration status of new employees through a federal work authorization program that is operated by the United States Department of Homeland Security. The verification requirements will apply to contractors and subcontractors with 500 or more employees on July 1, 2007, to contractors or subcontractors with 100 or more workers on July 1, 2008; and, after July 1, 2009, all government contractors and subcontractors will be subject to the new laws. While Section 2 does not contain any provisions related to enforcement, it does require the Commissioner of Labor to promulgate the rules and regulations necessary to enforce the law and to publish them on the Georgia Department of Labor's Web site.

While the GSICA will certainly affect Georgia businesses, one must also be cognizant of existing federal laws, which also address the hiring of illegal immigrants. For example, pursuant to 8 U.S.C.A. ? 1324a, one who knowingly hires illegal immigrants may be subject to civil penalties ranging from $200 to $10,000 and criminal penalties that could include imprisonment.

Although the GSICA has been described by some as a "tough immigration law," the overall purpose behind the GSICA is to strike a balance between welcoming individuals that seek to legally live and work in Georgia, while protecting the rights of United States citizens. Either way, it is important for Georgia employers that have become increasingly dependant on immigrant or migrant labor to determine how the new laws will affect their businesses.

http://www.wikigwinnett.com/content....TOKEN=48059084

[TheMercenary]

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=420155&postcount=16

Heh, yea, sure this guy and his illegal mates have contributed enough to make up for the loss.

[TheMercenary]

Number of Illegal Aliens in the Country: 21,013,427.
Money Wired to Mexico City since January 2006: $34,648,085,563.
Cost of Social Security Services for Illegal Aliens since 1996: $397,465,864,322.
Number of Children of Illegal Aliens in Public Schools: 4.071,971.
Cost of Illegal Aliens Incarcerated since 2001: $1,437,741,781.
Number of Illegal Aliens Incarcerated: 341,854.
Number of Illegal Alien Fugitives: 653,088.
Skilled Jobs Taken by Illegal Aliens: 10,052,905.
Anchor babies since 2002: 2,045,584.

Figures can trick your eyes. Take particular note that some of the figures reflect BILLIONS not millions of dollars – and that the third item exceeds one-third of a TRILLION dollars. Can you imagine how much it will cost taxpayers if we triple the number of illegals entering this country?

http://immigrationcounters.com/datasource.html

[classicman]

from immigrationcounters.com

As a result of illegal immigration some government agencies have benefited from growth in their programs to meet the expanding demands of their services. Some businesses are temporarily benefiting from illegal hiring. However, because of the increased costs of social services, law enforcement, lost revenue due to displaced legal hires, lost revenue from tax fraud and remittances, no sound research supports a net financial gain to the country. There are no free social services, those costs are shifted over into higher taxes and insurance premiums. Non-profit services provided to illegal immigrants shifts resources that could be used for legal immigrants and citizens. The majority of research finds that illegal immigration is bad for America and often the illegal immigrants themselves. The intent of the immigration laws and that of the nation's founders are being violated on a scale few could have imagined. It may be presumptuous for the government to assume it can implement a new and expanded amnesty guest worker program when its been unable or unwilling to manage the existing immigration laws.

My bold for emphasis.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

OK, I'm just a little bit troubled by anyone saying taxing isn't fair in a society.

How can the government build roads and basic infrastructure etc if the community doesn't contribute?

Before 1913, we had no income taxes. We had roads, schools, hospitals, post offices, etc.

In fact 100% of the Constitutional parts of our government could be paid for using only the tariffs and excise taxes already collected without raising them even a penny.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

What you state is opinion, not fact. I can tell you that the fact is that the arrest and detention powers of the illegal aliens entering the US illegally are real and legitimate. There is no whole scale release of these illegal immigrants based on legal appeal by contesting law you interpret it. If there is please provide objective facts which document these events.

Attempting to attack an argument based on accusations of "racism or xenophobia" is a straw man approach.

I am not stating an opinion, I am stating a FACT when I say the U.S. Government has absolutely zero legitimate or Constitutional authority to create or enforce immigration laws. The U.S. Constitution PROHIBITS the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. I've proven this many times over.

This is black and white. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. I don't "interpret" the Constitution because it doesn't require interpretation. It's written in simple English and it means what it says and it says the Federal government has absolutely zero authority over immigration and has no implied powers because everything not enumerated in the Constitution is RESERVED as a power of the states or a right of the people.

Since there are no legitimate federal immigration laws, those who lie and claim immigrants are costing us money, that they are coming here for handouts, that they are closing hospitals, that they are here illegally, they are more likely to commit crimes than people born here, they are less intelligent than those born here, etc. have some other ax to grind.

They aren't here illegally, yet these people want to force them out. So if it's not a legal issue, it's a personal issue. And saying that it's either racism or xenophobia is truthful, not a straw man.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

I am not stating an opinion, I am stating a FACT when I say the U.S. Government has absolutely zero legitimate or Constitutional authority to create or enforce immigration laws. The U.S. Constitution PROHIBITS the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. I've proven this many times over.

This is black and white. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. I don't "interpret" the Constitution because it doesn't require interpretation. It's written in simple English and it means what it says and it says the Federal government has absolutely zero authority over immigration and has no implied powers because everything not enumerated in the Constitution is RESERVED as a power of the states or a right of the people.

Since there are no legitimate federal immigration laws, those who lie and claim immigrants are costing us money, that they are coming here for handouts, that they are closing hospitals, that they are here illegally, they are more likely to commit crimes than people born here, they are less intelligent than those born here, etc. have some other ax to grind.

They aren't here illegally, yet these people want to force them out. So if it's not a legal issue, it's a personal issue. And saying that it's either racism or xenophobia is truthful, not a straw man.

You are twisting the facts to meet your own needs to define law. You continue down this straw man approach by calling people xenophobes or racists and that is a failed path to make your case. You have not provided any primary resources to support your argument, you just want us to accept what you say on face value, and no one will do that on this subject. I have no idea how you think you can cherry pick legal issues at a federal government level and win an argument, because you can't and nothing you have stated to this date on this issue would be held up in court. There are Federal Statutes which make it illegal to enter our country in an unlawful manner.

"Congress enacted the McCarran-Walter
Bill of 1952, which combined existing immigration laws scattered throughout the federal statutes and recodified them into the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), located in Title 8 of the U.S. Code. The INA contains both civil and criminal laws that are applied to immigration issues. Traditionally,
the federal government has reserved civil enforcement power, such as verifying citizenship and deporting undocumented aliens, for itself, while allowing state and local governments some power over the criminal enforcement that supports illegal immigration control. While state police may investigate criminal activities such as a false identification or alien smuggling rings, federal
immigration officials will handle civil issues involving citizenship and deportation,
and do so without any input or assistance
from the state. However, this traditional
separation of sovereign powers is slowly eroding as states are granted, and in some cases are taking, more of a role in dealing
with illegal immigration."

http://www.legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/pubs/wb/07wb6.pdf

All of the people of whom you speak are ILLEGAL ALIENS and in this country unlawfully. Get it, breaking federal statute. Means they can go to jail and be deported after a hearing in front of a Federal Magistrate.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by Radar

Before 1913, we had no income taxes. We had roads, schools, hospitals, post offices, etc.

In fact 100% of the Constitutional parts of our government could be paid for using only the tariffs and excise taxes already collected without raising them even a penny.

Before 1913, most people didn't have cars and roads were not maintained as they are now. Hospitals and schools etc were funded (largely) by private entities or churches.

Unless your country is living in surplus (and we all know it's not) on a continual basis, I don't think your government can afford not to tax people, and even if it were, it'd have to be a huge surplus.