Do You Own a Gun?

piercehawkeye45 · 05-31-2007, 08:22 AM

No, most Native Americans didn't own property and were perfectly content with that even when they knew that the white settlers did it. They chose not too because they didn't think it was necessary to their way of life, so it wasn't a right in their culture.

I am pretty sure every culture can agree on the right to life so I won't go into that but if a culture agrees that they don't want to have "the right to own property" as a right, why should we tell them they are wrong? They are just living a different lifestyle than you are with different perspectives on how they should live.

No human ever owned property until the agriculture revolution 10,000 -12,000 years ago. Were the people before that too stupid to not realize that they could own property? No, of course not, they were just as smart as us, just that their lifestyle didn't demand the need to own property so it wasn't a right to them.

What you are doing is telling them that their culture and way of life is wrong which is outrageous. If they want to live their lives without owning property then it is up to them. If they want to adopt our lifestyle then fine, let them. Just don't tell them they are wrong because I guarantee many will think they same about yours.

What you are saying is that humans are somewhat special in the universe. It’s hard to accept but humans don't mean anything to the universe and we are nothing to it except another animal. We are no better than any other animal on this planet, then why should we have natural rights? The only explanation is that we think we are better, so we made up rights to satisfy that thought.

Radar · 05-31-2007, 10:39 AM

You stupidly claim that no human owned property before the agricultural revolution. How do you know this? The answer is you don't. There were hundreds of ancient civilizations.

Let's say I agree that "most" people didn't own property back then. Why was this? It was because people could only own what they could defend, and because people migrated from one area to another in search of food. The agricultural revolution was what got people to stay in one place so they could cultivate crops. It wasn't that people couldn't own property, it was that they didn't think they'd be able to live if they stayed in one place. Tribal peoples like the American Indians shared everything and were pretty much communists (all communism and socialism is inherently wrong) as well as being migratory people. They not only didn't see the need to own land, they didn't think land could be owned. They didn't comprehend the concept of property ownership. So in answer to your ridiculous question, YES, they were too stupid to realize they could own land and it cost them most of America.

The gargantuan thing you are ignoring, and the gaping hole in your ridiculous claims is the fact that even then they had the RIGHT to own property. Whether or not they chose to exercise that right is irrelevant. Whether or not the tribe in which they lived believed they could own property is also irrelevant.

The only human you speak for is yourself, and if you want to believe you aren't above animals, that's fine. If you want to act like an idiot and deny natural, immutable, self-evident, and universal human rights, that's fine too. If you find yourself violating my rights, you may find yourself without a voice to deny such things because dead people don't talk much.

Our rights aren't an "idea" or a "thought" or a "concept". They weren't made up by humans. They weren't made up by societies. They have existed for as long as the universe has existed. It took the beings with the highest level of sentience on the planet (humans) to DISCOVER rights. Rights don't go away when they are being violated by "society" or by governments. This is a universal truth and will continue to be regardless of the number of times you blather incoherently denying it.

piercehawkeye45 · 05-31-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

Tribal peoples like the American Indians shared everything and were pretty much communists (all communism and socialism is inherently wrong) as well as being migratory people. They not only didn't see the need to own land, they didn't think land could be owned. They didn't comprehend the concept of property ownership. So in answer to your ridiculous question, YES, they were too stupid to realize they could own land and it cost them most of America.

Stop making your opinion fact. That is why you will never see it a different way because you are too closeminded to notice that you are not the center of the universe. This obviously isn't going anywhere on relation to rights so I'm going to let that die.

Quote:

Now we understand, pierce does not believe in freedom, equality or a republic. There is no more discussion.
He wants a police state.

Is that the great logic you speak of?

I do not believe in universal ethics but yet I am a moral person. How does that work? Maybe just because I believe that freedoms are man-made doesn't mean that I don't believe we should use them.

Flint · 05-31-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

No, most Native Americans didn't own property and were perfectly content with that even when they knew that the white settlers did it.

Not true. Another popular fabrication used to rationalize European conquest. We keep repeating it because we "learned" it in "history" class.

piercehawkeye45 · 05-31-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Not true. Another popular fabrication used to rationalize European conquest. We keep repeating it because we "learned" it in "history" class.

Sorry, I was refering more towardsthe Plain Indian groups that did tend to live a life free of owning property. I also realize that the Plain Indians did live a life of agriculture but stopped when the settlers from Europe came and brought them horses.

06-01-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Sorry, I was refering more towardsthe Plain Indian groups that did tend to live a life free of owning property. I also realize that the Plain Indians did live a life of agriculture but stopped when the settlers from Europe came and brought them horses.

They also spent a lot of time killing their neighbors.
Communism and socialism have been used to enable the ruling classes to practice some of the worst and most complete genocides in history... the first step of each being to disarm the public.
Native Americans, however are completely OT to this conversation.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-01-2007, 03:32 PM

Pierce, read the Lakota Winter Counts.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-31-2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Not true. Another popular fabrication used to rationalize European conquest. We keep repeating it because we "learned" it in "history" class.

Tribes or sub-groups controlled territories, I've never heard of any tribe claiming to own land and certainly not individual Indians.
Maybe our resident expert can clarify.

glatt · 06-01-2007, 08:08 AM

Well, he did say North America. (in his "this is my America thread") I suppose that included the Aztec cities. Is that what you are talking about Flint?

View Poll Results: Do you own a gun?
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05-31-2007, 10:39 AM	#2
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	You stupidly claim that no human owned property before the agricultural revolution. How do you know this? The answer is you don't. There were hundreds of ancient civilizations. Let's say I agree that "most" people didn't own property back then. Why was this? It was because people could only own what they could defend, and because people migrated from one area to another in search of food. The agricultural revolution was what got people to stay in one place so they could cultivate crops. It wasn't that people couldn't own property, it was that they didn't think they'd be able to live if they stayed in one place. Tribal peoples like the American Indians shared everything and were pretty much communists (all communism and socialism is inherently wrong) as well as being migratory people. They not only didn't see the need to own land, they didn't think land could be owned. They didn't comprehend the concept of property ownership. So in answer to your ridiculous question, YES, they were too stupid to realize they could own land and it cost them most of America. The gargantuan thing you are ignoring, and the gaping hole in your ridiculous claims is the fact that even then they had the RIGHT to own property. Whether or not they chose to exercise that right is irrelevant. Whether or not the tribe in which they lived believed they could own property is also irrelevant. The only human you speak for is yourself, and if you want to believe you aren't above animals, that's fine. If you want to act like an idiot and deny natural, immutable, self-evident, and universal human rights, that's fine too. If you find yourself violating my rights, you may find yourself without a voice to deny such things because dead people don't talk much. Our rights aren't an "idea" or a "thought" or a "concept". They weren't made up by humans. They weren't made up by societies. They have existed for as long as the universe has existed. It took the beings with the highest level of sentience on the planet (humans) to DISCOVER rights. Rights don't go away when they are being violated by "society" or by governments. This is a universal truth and will continue to be regardless of the number of times you blather incoherently denying it. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

06-01-2007, 03:32 PM	#7
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Pierce, read the Lakota Winter Counts. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-01-2007, 08:08 AM	#9
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Well, he did say North America. (in his "this is my America thread") I suppose that included the Aztec cities. Is that what you are talking about Flint? Attached Images Last edited by glatt; 06-01-2007 at 08:16 AM.

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05-31-2007, 08:22 AM	#1
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	No, most Native Americans didn't own property and were perfectly content with that even when they knew that the white settlers did it. They chose not too because they didn't think it was necessary to their way of life, so it wasn't a right in their culture. I am pretty sure every culture can agree on the right to life so I won't go into that but if a culture agrees that they don't want to have "the right to own property" as a right, why should we tell them they are wrong? They are just living a different lifestyle than you are with different perspectives on how they should live. No human ever owned property until the agriculture revolution 10,000 -12,000 years ago. Were the people before that too stupid to not realize that they could own property? No, of course not, they were just as smart as us, just that their lifestyle didn't demand the need to own property so it wasn't a right to them. What you are doing is telling them that their culture and way of life is wrong which is outrageous. If they want to live their lives without owning property then it is up to them. If they want to adopt our lifestyle then fine, let them. Just don't tell them they are wrong because I guarantee many will think they same about yours. What you are saying is that humans are somewhat special in the universe. It’s hard to accept but humans don't mean anything to the universe and we are nothing to it except another animal. We are no better than any other animal on this planet, then why should we have natural rights? The only explanation is that we think we are better, so we made up rights to satisfy that thought.

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