Loyalty Oath

xoxoxoBruce · 05-04-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

"I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter."

Do you see pacifism or religion as a reasonable objection against teachers signing this oath?

Quote:

When Wendy Gonaver was offered a job teaching American studies at Cal State Fullerton this academic year, she was pleased to be headed back to the classroom to talk about one of her favorite themes: protecting constitutional freedoms.

But the day before class was scheduled to begin, her appointment as a lecturer abruptly ended over just the kind of issue that might have figured in her course. She lost the job because she did not sign a loyalty oath swearing to "defend" the U.S. and California constitutions "against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

The story here.

An interesting side note...

Quote:

UC Berkeley was the first to impose a tough anti-communist loyalty oath in 1949 and fired 31 professors who refused to sign.

Yeah Berkeley, who'd a thunk it. Three years later it was added to the state constitution.

regular.joe · 05-04-2008, 03:44 PM

I find it interesting that to support and defend the constitution by default means to do so violently. I don't think that this is necessarily so. I know many pacifists who support and defend many things/ideas non-violently.

I joined the Army where the oath of enlistment is similar to the oath this teacher refused to sign. I think it is expected in the Army to close with and fight an adversary someday, not so with a teacher. It is expected that a teacher should teach.

Working at a state run school, she refuses to support and defend the U.S. and state constitutions, even in a non violent way, by teaching.....she doesn't get to be hired as a teacher.

I don't see the problem.

Trilby · 05-04-2008, 04:19 PM

Berkeley?

*faints*

Sundae · 05-04-2008, 04:37 PM

... the land of the free
and the home of the brave...

Cloud · 05-04-2008, 05:46 PM

first, I find it weird that they have to swear to defend the constitutions against enemies (and not the country or state itself). How do you do that? fend off bugs and humidity? And second, why do teachers have to defend against any enemies? They are not law enforcement or military. Seems strange.

SteveDallas · 05-04-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

Berkeley?

*faints*

Yeah, Berkeley... just think how many English professors they have there..............

I would probably hold my nose and sign it... it's a stupid requirement for a teaching job. It would be interesting to see it litigated. Support? Defend? True Faith? Allegiance? These are all horribly vague concepts. Does voting for any constitutional amendment imply a lack of support for the current Constitution? What if a student states that the consumption of alcohol is detrimental to society as a whole, and that prohibition should never have been repealed? What if a student questions the wisdom of the direct election of US Senators? What form should the teacher's defense of the Constitution take?

EDIT: OH SHIT!!! This requirement is in the CA constitution, and I just dissed it!! I suppose I'll be hunted down next time I set foot in CA.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-04-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

It would be interesting to see it litigated.

It has been, repeatedly, and upheld by the courts.

richlevy · 05-04-2008, 07:29 PM

If you don't like the oath, don't take a government job. The only people besides government employees and military required to take the oath or something similar are naturalized citizens.

One question is what does Cal State do about employees who aren't US citizens?

I still remember discussing the oath with the ROTC captain who wanted to administer it to me (I was not really in ROTC, but that's another story). I was concerned about any conflict between being a US citizen and being a Zionist. He reminded me that the US and Israel have always been allies.

This was before the Pollard incident.

I took the oath and I believe in it.

I do still find it odd when I go our township meeting and everyone has to get up and recite the pledge of allegiance. To me it's something you feel or don't feel and reciting it won't change things.

Imagine making every husband in America stand up during public events and recite 'I will not cheat on my wife', as if that will cure infidelity. Do we measure patriotism by how loud and heartfelt the pledge swearers are? Do we give points for wearing a flag pin?

Patriotism means standing up for your beliefs in regards to your country, even when those beliefs are unpopular.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-04-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richlevy

One question is what does Cal State do about employees who aren't US citizens?

Quote:

All state, city, county, public school, community college and public university employees -- about 2.3 million people -- are covered by the law, although noncitizens are not required to sign.

SteveDallas · 05-04-2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richlevy

Do we measure patriotism by how loud and heartfelt the pledge swearers are?

Yes. Oh, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by richlevy

Do we give points for wearing a flag pin?

FUCK YEAH!!

footfootfoot · 05-04-2008, 10:33 PM

"I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter."

yeah, yeah, I know allright, allright, big eyes, big eyes, yeah, yeah, I know allright, big eyes, goodbye.

TheMercenary · 05-05-2008, 06:24 AM

I had to sign and recite it when I was commissioned as a 2LT. Had to repeat it when I became Regular Army after 2nd AD promotion {not to include 1st LT}. Yea, you better believe it. Otherwise find another job.

I don't think teachers should be doing it.

Cloud · 05-05-2008, 08:51 AM

soldier is different than teacher. what about postal carriers? municipal court clerks? dogcatchers?

TheMercenary · 05-05-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloud

soldier is different than teacher. what about postal carriers? municipal court clerks? dogcatchers?

"...and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

What are they going to do? Throw mail at them? Throw legal papers at them? Throw cats at them? Teachers? Throw pencils at them?

How the hell are they going to defend themselves out of a paper bag? At Berkley no less? I know, they could get those pink ladies that protested in front of the Marines to defend them and the Marines could stand by and watch them get slaughtered. Good luck on that one.

piercehawkeye45 · 05-05-2008, 07:37 PM

Bring on the brainwashing...

Its one stupid and two unenforceable.

I've been in contact with a teacher in California that is a proclaimed anarchist.

05-04-2008, 03:44 PM	#2
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	I find it interesting that to support and defend the constitution by default means to do so violently. I don't think that this is necessarily so. I know many pacifists who support and defend many things/ideas non-violently. I joined the Army where the oath of enlistment is similar to the oath this teacher refused to sign. I think it is expected in the Army to close with and fight an adversary someday, not so with a teacher. It is expected that a teacher should teach. Working at a state run school, she refuses to support and defend the U.S. and state constitutions, even in a non violent way, by teaching.....she doesn't get to be hired as a teacher. I don't see the problem. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

05-04-2008, 04:19 PM	#3
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Berkeley? faints __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

05-04-2008, 04:37 PM	#4
Sundae polaroid of perfection Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 24,185	... the land of the free and the home of the brave... __________________ Life's hard you know, so strike a pose on a Cadillac

05-04-2008, 05:46 PM	#5
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	first, I find it weird that they have to swear to defend the constitutions against enemies (and not the country or state itself). How do you do that? fend off bugs and humidity? And second, why do teachers have to defend against any enemies? They are not law enforcement or military. Seems strange. __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

05-04-2008, 07:29 PM	#8
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	If you don't like the oath, don't take a government job. The only people besides government employees and military required to take the oath or something similar are naturalized citizens. One question is what does Cal State do about employees who aren't US citizens? I still remember discussing the oath with the ROTC captain who wanted to administer it to me (I was not really in ROTC, but that's another story). I was concerned about any conflict between being a US citizen and being a Zionist. He reminded me that the US and Israel have always been allies. This was before the Pollard incident. I took the oath and I believe in it. I do still find it odd when I go our township meeting and everyone has to get up and recite the pledge of allegiance. To me it's something you feel or don't feel and reciting it won't change things. Imagine making every husband in America stand up during public events and recite 'I will not cheat on my wife', as if that will cure infidelity. Do we measure patriotism by how loud and heartfelt the pledge swearers are? Do we give points for wearing a flag pin? Patriotism means standing up for your beliefs in regards to your country, even when those beliefs are unpopular. __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

05-04-2008, 10:33 PM	#11
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	"I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about to enter." yeah, yeah, I know allright, allright, big eyes, big eyes, yeah, yeah, I know allright, big eyes, goodbye. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

05-05-2008, 06:24 AM	#12
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	I had to sign and recite it when I was commissioned as a 2LT. Had to repeat it when I became Regular Army after 2nd AD promotion {not to include 1st LT}. Yea, you better believe it. Otherwise find another job. I don't think teachers should be doing it. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

05-05-2008, 08:51 AM	#13
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	soldier is different than teacher. what about postal carriers? municipal court clerks? dogcatchers? __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

05-05-2008, 07:37 PM	#15
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Bring on the brainwashing... Its one stupid and two unenforceable. I've been in contact with a teacher in California that is a proclaimed anarchist. __________________ I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all.

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