08/07/02: Bitch.

[juju]

Originally posted by Nic Name
It probably wasn't fair of juju to name Dave as an example to make his argument, which has a false hypothesis. The psychological study linked in this post applies to people generally, not to any individual, and I'd emphasize that this post doesn't reference any named person, but takes issue with juju's argument.

Juju's hypothesis that people know a bit more about themselves than can be learned from objective observation of their behavior is fuzzy logic, although he might be less likely to realize this than others. ;)

I agree with the quoted material. However, we're specifically talking about how dave feels about homosexuals, and what specific meaning he ascribes to certain words. Those aren't abilities, it's how he feels. We can nearly always be certain of how we feel about certain issues (even if that feeling is indifference).

[Nic Name]

http://www.advocate.com/html/stories..._70_rocker.asp

[juju]

Originally posted by Nic Name
http://www.advocate.com/html/stories..._70_rocker.asp

Please use your own words.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by dhamsaic
I'm not sure they're insults. It's really just to say something silly.

Well, alllow me to clear up your uncertainty.

Also, I think you're trying to analyze something you've obviously never really taken part in or understood.

I think everyone in this thread has either participated in this sort of thing or at least been present when it was going on. It's far too common for you to make that claim.

I call my friends "boner" too. Does that mean I am prejudiced against boners?

No, there is no group of people in our society I'm aware of known as "boners". ...are you blowing smoke here or do you really not understand the point?

Get real. People are just having a fun time with some words.
Just like there is nothing morally wrong with saying "fuck", there is nothing morally wrong with saying "fag". The words themselves are just combinations of letters, and I submit that how you use them and what you mean are the things that make a difference.

Those things clearly matter, but there are *other* things that are important too--you can't just dismiss them out-of-hand.

There is no issue here that "fuck" or "fag" or "nigger" or any other word in isolation is a good or bad word. But how you choose to say what you say conveys meanings and reveals things about you *besides* what you intend it to, and has effects far beyond what you're concious of at the time you speak..

The point I've been trying to make is not a moral one; each of us decides for themselves what is moral or immoral. But for you to claim that these issues simply don't exist because "we was just funnin" or "these are just harmless words made up of innocuous letters" misses that point profoundly. The issues don't exist at the level of words, syllables or letters, rather than focusing on minutia, look *up* the chain of abstraction where meaning, intent and social effects reside.

Unless it's just that you don't like what you see when you do...

[Xugumad]

People are just having a fun time with some words. Just like there is nothing morally wrong with saying "fuck", there is nothing morally wrong with saying "fag".

Yet you get, to quote, 'really uncomfortable' around people saying certain words, and meaning them?

The words themselves are just combinations of letters, and I submit that how you use them and what you mean are the things that make a difference.

Logical fallacy. You can use a word any way you want, but it has an intrinsic meaning. You can attach any additional meaning you want in your own soci-etymological subset of existence, but - if you are even remotely aware what its genuine meaning is - you cannot ever truly discard what it stands for.

There is a difference between someone saying 'I don't like black people.' and saying 'I don't like niggers.' The second one establishes a psychological link between a derogatory term and a racial group. The legitimization of a pejorative term based on sexual preference or racial characteristics (or other fairly unchangeable facts of existence, something that makes the term 'preference' in itself somewhat ambiguous) through harmless joking around means that its impact on non-affected groups is blunted.

To put it simply: if many white people started using the term 'nigger' in perfectly 'harmless' and 'joking' ways, white people as a societal group would stop thinking that it's all that horrible and dreadful. Come to think of it, the way some black people have been using 'nigger' amongst themselves has already done that to the white populace to some extent: i.e. the thought process of 'it is being legitimized through use' comes to the fore.

If white people started using that term a lot, black people would still hate it and still resent it. Because it represents hate, fear, bigotry, and oppression.

If something represents a moral and factual evil, such as a word, you can trivialize it, make it banal, take its barbs, blunt it, by using it largely amongst people who aren't directly affected by it. I am aware that there is inter-ethnic and inter-[homo|hetero]sexual usage of slurs such as 'fag' and 'nigger', and there is a considerable debate in the black community as well, whether the usage of 'nigger' by blacks is acceptable and helpful.

The truth is that certain words carry an intrinsic weight with them, and that there are many people out there who are aware of that weight, and who feel hurt by it when they hear it. Trivializing such terms, and making them semi-acceptable creates a situation where people who have a right to feel worried and offended by hearing their usage are being told to 'Get real' and stop acting all sensitive over something that's just joking amongst friends.

I can't speak for Maggie, but I imagine that she probably feels just a tad unhappy at seeing people being completely oblivious of their own ignorance.

Thus we come full circle, answering my question to you in the first paragraph of this message: you get uncomfortable around people using phrases of hatred in earnest because you know what hey mean. And no matter how much joking around with those words you'll ever do, they'll still represent hate and violence to a group of people that you do not belong to. Since you're probably a decent person, you don't like seeing arbitrary hatred and discrimination against certain groups of people. Yet by legitimizing certain terms through using them, you are unwittingly aiding that discrimination.

Because 'fag' is a humorous insult used by people around the US, right now. Who may not even think about homosexuality when calling someone else a 'fag'. But they do it nonetheless. And 'fag' becomes more and more well-known and accepted as an insult.

Right down when you'll hear someone on a sitcom in 25 years' time calling someone a 'fag', immediately followed up by canned, taped laughter.

Hey, what's the big deal about. It's just joking amongst friends, I'm not a homophobe, dude. Just back off and go annoy someone else with that PC crap.

Jeez. What a fag.

X.

[juju]

Originally posted by Xugumad
Logical fallacy. You can use a word any way you want, but it has an intrinsic meaning. You can attach any additional meaning you want in your own soci-etymological subset of existence, but - if you are even remotely aware what its genuine meaning is - you cannot ever truly discard what it stands for.

Words do not have 'intrinsic' meaning. They are phonemes, and they only have the meaning that you personally ascribe to them. A word that means one thing to Maggie could mean something completely different to Dave.

Alas, I have to go to work or i'll be late. :] I'm sure what Maggie is saying happens does happen. But i'm saying there are exceptions.

[Nic Name]

Originally posted by juju

Please use your own words.

It's pointless to debate with people who insist that their words have unique and special meanings known only to themselves, which meanings may differ from the meanings of those communications generally understood by the society in which they try desperately to be understood.

dhamsaic argues that his words mean what he intends them to mean, regardless of what those words are understood to mean by others in this society. This argument shows a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of language as a communications medium. Otherwise, there would be no need for a common language, everyone being content that he knows what he's talking about, and that's all that matters, while everyone else is aware that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

So, don't get me wrong when I say you sound like a fag, yourself, 'cause I'm thinking of a cigarette ... and you're just blowin' smoke.

[Xugumad]

Originally posted by juju


Words do not have 'intrinsic' meaning. They are phonemes, and they only have the meaning that you personally ascribe to them. A word that means one thing to Maggie could mean something completely different to Dave.

Nonsense. The reason why 'fag' and 'nigger' are used as 'joking' insults is because their universal meaning in the US-English language is well known; thus their intrinsic meaning. In Britain, fag is used much more rarely to describe homosexuals, and its intrinsic meanings there are usually different, usually referring to cigarettes or in more archaic terms certain Independent School pupils.

Universality of meaning results in words' intrinsic nature. You can sit there all day and claim that 'nigger' means a different thing to black rappers than it does to middle-class white suburbanites, but its core value is that of an insulting term ascribed to black people.

That is why 'fag' and 'nigger' are used as insults; Maggie and Dave may be thinking of different things when they use those words, but they use them in a pejorative way (arguably Maggie may not use them in pejorative ways, merely thinking of their meaning in that way). Because their intrinsic meaning is pejorative. This is what the whole brouhaha was about when quite a lot of educated Afro-Americans started being appalled by the use of 'nigger' by younger blacks in a non-pejorative manner, giving it 'new meaning.' That's the whole point of slang terms, especially relating to insults: the word is the meaning.

Nigrum.. negro.. negroe.. nigger.

Re-read the bit in my last message about people attaching meaning to words, and in what context that was written; please don't quote out of context.

X.

I think the difference here is that when I'm with people I know and I say those words (or they say them to me), the meaning is understood.. Obviously I wouldn't go around tossing them out in conversation around people I wasn't familiar with - walking through Baltimore saying "What's up, nigga?" isn't a good idea, for example. I understand the meaning they have.

Coming back to that, words are just words. They are combinations of letters. Of course meanings are attached to them. We've already been over that. "Fag" in Britain generally means "cigarette". "Fag" in the United States generally is a derogatory calling for a male homosexual. "Fag" in one of my tight groups of friends really has no meaning - it's just something we toss around (and like I said, generally in a completely bogus sense - "McFag", one might call another). What you've said is that in different places, words mean different things. Why can't this be any different in a circle of friends?

Now, when someone says "I hate niggers" or "Fuckin' chinks piss me off" and they're very obviously not joking, then it can be assumed that they are indeed meaning they dislike persons of the African persuasion and are generally aggravated by the Chinese. That is indeed pretty sad - I have friends of all colors (well, maybe not ALL, but damn close), including brown and yellow. I think it's sad that people have been indoctrinated with such hate. And yeah, it's possible that they could have picked it up by hearing their older brother joke with friends about "niggas". Which is why I'm responsible with my wording out in public, and I only use my choice phrases in my varous circles of friends.

Anyway, I think this is pretty much a dead topic as far as I'm concerned. We can just agree to disagree, because Maggie & Xug aren't going to see any validity to my argument and whatever they say isn't going to change the fact that what I'm doing, with my friends, isn't hurting anyone else.

[juju]

Originally posted by Xugumad
Re-read the bit in my last message about people attaching meaning to words, and in what context that was written; please don't quote out of context.

Just got back from work. :] Sorry if I quoted you out of context. I was in a real hurry when I wrote that last post. I promise i'll read over all this more carefully later on tonight. I do see your point, though. Right now I have to go wash the stink of pizza off me.

[Nic Name]

It's a common ritual among young immature males to attack the masculinity of their male peer group, often in jest, as a way of asserting their own masculinity to the group, especially when there could be some uncertainty or doubt.

Often, to verbalize derisive epithets toward friendly targets is a safe way of asserting one's masculinity, lest there be any doubt. Mature heterosexual males seldom exhibit this behavior, which is common among immature teenage boys.

Tyson, wiith his girlish voice and speech impediment, is an insecure male who feels the need to speak out against homosexual males and make aggressive sexual attacks on females to assert his masculinity, which might be questionable.

It may be that Dave's personal preference for exceptionally long hair has lead strangers to question his masculinity when he's out with the guys, so it's a natural defense mechanism to verbalize homophobic expressions so as to make it clear that he's not one of them ... not that there's anything wrong with them, he'd assure us ... just don't mistake him for one of them.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, Nic. The one where I mentioned that I think we're all at least a little bisexual. Including myself. I have no problem admitting that, and I'd have no problem admitting if I were homosexual. If you're homosexual, you're homosexual. Big fuckin' deal. I'm not, and no one's ever really questioned it. My long hair is loved by the ladies and I think most guys know that. Nice hair is something you can have in common with a woman - at least that gets her talking.

I have no need to defend my sexuality, but if I did, perhaps your theory would hold water. However, what about my race? Is my ethnicity being questioned? Maybe that's why I call Andrea (who is half Chinese) "chinky" or "slitty eyed" (both joking, of course). Yes, that must be it.

Or maybe, just maybe, LIKE I PREVIOUSLY SAID, we're just picking names and calling them in good fun.

You're making much ado about nothing. One of my very best friends is a lesbian. Big fuckin' deal. She knows how I mean what I say, so I don't have to watch myself around her. You've obviously never been a part of it, and that's okay - just don't pretend to know what's going on with others. I don't judge you or Maggie or Xug or anyone else here, and you've no right to judge me.

I should also make it clear that my usage of "fag" is generally toward girls. I call my guy friends "slut" and "beeotch" and "vagina head" and fun things like that. So the verbalizing "homophobic expressions" argument falls kinda flat.

[Nic Name]

Well, if it's workin' for ya. Don't change a thing. I'm not accustomed to using racial slurs as terms of endearment for my friends, but it might work for some people. Maybe its a bonding thing, where their tolerance for your slurs confirms you're OK, since they would be offended if a stranger called them the same names. There's definitely something goin' on aside from the language. I'm not judging you. Just trying to understand the behavior.

Then how about asking questions instead of assuming?