The right way to stop a bully - Page 9

Aliantha · 03-25-2011, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I keep reiterating that it is not easy, it is just better than violence. If it is going to take too long to get them to another school and the bullying is just THAT bad, then just remove them from school for the time being.

I'm not sure what the rules are in the US, but over here you can't just take a kid out of school and keep them at home. Sure you could home school, but what if you already have a full time job? Maybe you should quit to support your child, but then, how will the bills get paid?

It's just not that simple.

Resorting to violence is a last resort, and most parents would encourage their children to try all other avenues, but sometimes they just don't work.

Sure systems could/might be implimented maybe in the future, but what if it's happening now?

It's just like all the other social issues. There's no quick fix, so we have to 'make do' with the best solution until something better comes along.

eta: My recent posts are not so much about this particular thread, but trying to explain what some of you feel is the 'cheering on' of the victim. Trying to help you understand why some of us feel less than sympathetic to the bully and why we recognise that the victim felt he had no other choice. That's real life. That's the way it is, and wishing it were something different is pointless.

lookout123 · 03-25-2011, 01:59 AM

So, MTP let me get this straight. I should teach my kid to run away if someone bullies him? and if that doesn't work I should help him to run further by moving him to a different school? So if the bully is in the neighborhood, should I also sell my house and move out of state?

No thanks. Conflict is rarely beneficial and it is certainly something to be avoided, but there is value in having a spine and being willing to stand up for yourself and not waiting for some benevolent authority figure to come save you. Waiting for an authority figure to come save you only works when they have the time, energy, and desire to give a shit about you. If you won't stand up for yourself in the unfortunate event it is required, don't expect anyone else to do it for you. Violence/conflict should not be desired, nor should it be feared.

and before you go further down the "he could have permanently damaged that poor bully" road, yes - you are right. A discussion on appropriate use of force and escalation would be a good idea, but no damn way would I scold the kid for standing up for himself.

lookout123 · 03-25-2011, 02:28 AM

Misinterpret? Let me back up then and see if I understand you correctly.

MTP's position: All conflict and violence should be avoided. Taken to its logical conclusion then a victim of bullying bears the responsibility(let's not forget the expense) to follow a progression of walking away, involving a bunch of authorities, then changing schools if the situation doesn't change. Do I have that right?

Lookout's position: Conflict and violence are best avoided but not to be pulled off the table as an option as they are unfortunately sometimes necessary and effective.

Just remember that if I'm a bad guy I don't really give a shit how you feel or what happens to you tomorrow. If I know (because you have made it clear) that no matter what I do you will not stand up to me, then I am free to take from you or do to you anything I want because you're an easy mark.

morethanpretty · 03-25-2011, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

Misinterpret? Let me back up then and see if I understand you correctly.

MTP's position: All conflict and violence should be avoided. Taken to its logical conclusion then a victim of bullying bears the responsibility(let's not forget the expense) to follow a progression of walking away, involving a bunch of authorities, then changing schools if the situation doesn't change. Do I have that right?

Lookout's position: Conflict and violence are best avoided but not to be pulled off the table as an option as they are unfortunately sometimes necessary and effective.

Just remember that if I'm a bad guy I don't really give a shit how you feel or what happens to you tomorrow. If I know (because you have made it clear) that no matter what I do you will not stand up to me, then I am free to take from you or do to you anything I want because you're an easy mark.

No, you don't understand my position. Violence is not always effective, and it is dangerous. The child should not have the responsibility of "taking matters into their own hands." It is fully the parent's responsibility to protect their underage child, and yes sometimes that does mean a significant expense if all other alternatives fail. Leaving your child in a position you know they may well have to turn to violence in order to protect themselves? Unacceptable.
Not being willing to become violent, does not mean I will not and do not have the means to stand up for myself.

lookout123 · 03-25-2011, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Violence is not always effective, and it is dangerous.

Finally, a statement I can agree with. Violence usually is not effective. But for those rare times when it is, it may be the only effective tool left and then it should be employed. It is potentially dangerous. Yep, and so is continuing to allow yourself to be a victim.

Spexxvet · 03-25-2011, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

Finally, a statement I can agree with. Violence usually is not effective. But for those rare times when it is, it may be the only effective tool left and then it should be employed. It is potentially dangerous. Yep, and so is continuing to allow yourself to be a victim.

Did the kid in the video try anything but violence before this incident?

Big Sarge · 03-25-2011, 04:16 AM

Here's what I taught my kids. Try to walk away or ignore. If they lay a hand on you, then it is katie bar the door. I dont care if you pick up a stick, bite, kick or whatever. Just fight back using any means possible. You don't have to win, but you better leave a mark on them. I've learned that way they won't mess with you again. Hey it worked for me & has seemed to work pretty darn well for my kids.

skysidhe · 03-25-2011, 09:41 AM

Boys have been fighting since the beginning of time. If there wasn't such a 'zero tolerance' at school then maybe the kid getting hit in the face would have felt free to shove him away.

Many times the person getting bullied has to suck it up because he has been taught not to retaliate. Many times that base instinct to protect oneself raises it's head and the bully gets hurt.( too ) Most of the time it isn't caught on film. If there had not been a video of this, or any witnesses, guaranteed that big kid would be charged with assault, given community service and for the instigator?, nothing.

I understand the reasons for zero tolerance but I cannot fathom their ( the kids ) reality, when at home they are taught to stand up for themselves, yet school teaches you a contradictory rule. The rule is not stand up for themselves. There is a rule but no tool other than what the parents teach them at home that doesn't apply to the school yard.

I highly doubt that little kid would have punched him outside of school. The fighting field would have been a little more fair. There would not have been the 'schools rule' that kept that big kids fists down long enough to take it in the face once or twice.

For the parents that teach their kids to ignore or walk away, how do they do that when they are getting punched in the face? or verbally taunted? Ignoring isn't a great tool. They don't ignore it. They take it home and it seethes until they cannot take it anymore and someone gets body slammed into the concrete.

classicman · 03-25-2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Ignoring isn't a great tool. They don't ignore it. They take it home and it seethes until they cannot take it anymore and someone gets body slammed into the concrete.

OR they start all kinds of self-destructive habits...
Cutting, drinking, drugs...

Ignoring a problem hoping it will go away rarely works. In fact, it usually gets worse..

Good points sky.

footfootfoot · 03-25-2011, 11:09 AM

Except for teeth. If you have a problem with your teeth and you ignore it, then eventually your teeth and your problem will go away.
Disclaimer: I am not a professional dentist.

lookout123 · 03-25-2011, 11:13 AM

But if you just let me hit you the problem will go away faster.
Disclaimer: I am not Ghandi

Sheldonrs · 03-25-2011, 11:21 AM

Remember the good, old days when kids could beat eachother up without all the analysis?

lookout123 · 03-25-2011, 11:23 AM

Yes. I remember when solutions to problems were handled at the lowest level possible without meetings, handwringing, and fingerpointing.

Seiously though I remember in 4th grade "fighting" Tommy T over a girl we both liked. The towncop was standing there chuckling and the only instruction he gave was to take off our gloves so we wouldn't tear any skin if we somehow miraculously hit eachother.

Spexxvet · 03-25-2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

Yes. I remember when solutions to problems were handled at the lowest level possible without meetings, handwringing, and fingerpointing.

Seiously though I remember in 4th grade "fighting" Tommy T over a girl we both liked. The towncop was standing there chuckling and the only instruction he gave was to take off our gloves so we wouldn't tear any skin if we somehow miraculously hit eachother.

Yeah. And look how you turned out.

jimhelm · 03-25-2011, 11:23 AM

you said anal ysis

03-25-2011, 01:59 AM	#2
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	So, MTP let me get this straight. I should teach my kid to run away if someone bullies him? and if that doesn't work I should help him to run further by moving him to a different school? So if the bully is in the neighborhood, should I also sell my house and move out of state? No thanks. Conflict is rarely beneficial and it is certainly something to be avoided, but there is value in having a spine and being willing to stand up for yourself and not waiting for some benevolent authority figure to come save you. Waiting for an authority figure to come save you only works when they have the time, energy, and desire to give a shit about you. If you won't stand up for yourself in the unfortunate event it is required, don't expect anyone else to do it for you. Violence/conflict should not be desired, nor should it be feared. and before you go further down the "he could have permanently damaged that poor bully" road, yes - you are right. A discussion on appropriate use of force and escalation would be a good idea, but no damn way would I scold the kid for standing up for himself. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin Last edited by lookout123; 03-25-2011 at 02:06 AM.

03-25-2011, 02:28 AM	#3
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	Misinterpret? Let me back up then and see if I understand you correctly. MTP's position: All conflict and violence should be avoided. Taken to its logical conclusion then a victim of bullying bears the responsibility(let's not forget the expense) to follow a progression of walking away, involving a bunch of authorities, then changing schools if the situation doesn't change. Do I have that right? Lookout's position: Conflict and violence are best avoided but not to be pulled off the table as an option as they are unfortunately sometimes necessary and effective. Just remember that if I'm a bad guy I don't really give a shit how you feel or what happens to you tomorrow. If I know (because you have made it clear) that no matter what I do you will not stand up to me, then I am free to take from you or do to you anything I want because you're an easy mark. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-25-2011, 04:16 AM	#7
Big Sarge Werepandas - lurking in your shadows Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: In the Deep South Posts: 3,408	Here's what I taught my kids. Try to walk away or ignore. If they lay a hand on you, then it is katie bar the door. I dont care if you pick up a stick, bite, kick or whatever. Just fight back using any means possible. You don't have to win, but you better leave a mark on them. I've learned that way they won't mess with you again. Hey it worked for me & has seemed to work pretty darn well for my kids. __________________ Give a man a match, & he'll be warm for 20 seconds. But toss that man a white phosphorus grenade and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

03-25-2011, 09:41 AM	#8
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Boys have been fighting since the beginning of time. If there wasn't such a 'zero tolerance' at school then maybe the kid getting hit in the face would have felt free to shove him away. Many times the person getting bullied has to suck it up because he has been taught not to retaliate. Many times that base instinct to protect oneself raises it's head and the bully gets hurt.( too ) Most of the time it isn't caught on film. If there had not been a video of this, or any witnesses, guaranteed that big kid would be charged with assault, given community service and for the instigator?, nothing. I understand the reasons for zero tolerance but I cannot fathom their ( the kids ) reality, when at home they are taught to stand up for themselves, yet school teaches you a contradictory rule. The rule is not stand up for themselves. There is a rule but no tool other than what the parents teach them at home that doesn't apply to the school yard. I highly doubt that little kid would have punched him outside of school. The fighting field would have been a little more fair. There would not have been the 'schools rule' that kept that big kids fists down long enough to take it in the face once or twice. For the parents that teach their kids to ignore or walk away, how do they do that when they are getting punched in the face? or verbally taunted? Ignoring isn't a great tool. They don't ignore it. They take it home and it seethes until they cannot take it anymore and someone gets body slammed into the concrete. Last edited by skysidhe; 03-25-2011 at 09:49 AM.

03-25-2011, 11:09 AM	#10
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	Except for teeth. If you have a problem with your teeth and you ignore it, then eventually your teeth and your problem will go away. Disclaimer: I am not a professional dentist. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

03-25-2011, 11:13 AM	#11
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	But if you just let me hit you the problem will go away faster. Disclaimer: I am not Ghandi __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-25-2011, 11:21 AM	#12
Sheldonrs Master Dwellar Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 4,412	Remember the good, old days when kids could beat eachother up without all the analysis? __________________ Laugh and the world laughs with you; cry and the world laughs AT you.

03-25-2011, 11:23 AM	#13
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	Yes. I remember when solutions to problems were handled at the lowest level possible without meetings, handwringing, and fingerpointing. Seiously though I remember in 4th grade "fighting" Tommy T over a girl we both liked. The towncop was standing there chuckling and the only instruction he gave was to take off our gloves so we wouldn't tear any skin if we somehow miraculously hit eachother. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-25-2011, 11:23 AM	#15
jimhelm a beautiful fool Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 39.939705 Posts: 4,504	you said anal ysis __________________ There's a Shadow just behind me. Shrouding every step I take. Making every promise empty, pointing every finger at me. _tool

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