Vaccination & epidemic

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

... instead of affording me the same respect, she chose to lecture me on the benefits of vaccines ... she chose to talk down to me as though I were ignorant about this topic.

LJ, I apologize for losing my temper and lecturing you rather than providing information friend-to-friend. You're not ignorant, you're not stupid, and it's clear that you care very very much about your children's wellbeing. You listened to the information that your wife gathered at the time, and you and Jinx decided how to best protect your children's interests.

Being passionate about my understanding doesn't make it acceptable to make you feel that you've been assaulted or judged. That's how I came across, although I didn't mean it that way - but it's how I came across. I'm sorry.

I hope you'll accept my apology. You and I both want the best for your children, for my children, for the rest of us. We're well-meaning people. I hope we can share information and discuss concerns and opinions without alienating each other.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I recall saying that I knew I was not going to change her mind. But, instead of affording me the same respect, she chose to lecture me on the benefits of vaccines, and she chose to state that I smeared all hard working physicians by questioning their motivation. She chose to talk down to me as though I were ignorant about this topic. I'm not.

First, this is exactly what I am talking about. Orthodoc provided facts. Those 'feeling' are what many adult do when they added their own emotions and bases to what was obviously a post of facts.

If anyone deserves insult and an apology, it is Orthodoc. Since she has provided facts that coincide with well understood research. And because the research done by lumberjim is completely not apparent.

Orthodoc has done what many have to do when the more easily emotional get emotional. Apologize so as to be political. But in reality, these fears of vaccines is not supported by any facts with perspective. In a logical world, the persion making conclusions without such facts (by only providing credibility to Jenny McCarthy and other anti-social types) would apologize for contributing to myths, hearsay, and lies.

If lumberjim was concerned with the tone, that is the first indication that he is ignoring what is only and most important. The facts.

Second, for some reason, lumberjim is concerned with changing opinions. As if victory was the purpose or important. Those are somewhere between secondary and irrelevant. Facts and perspective are relevant. Does not matter that he does not like the facts. As if the facts were somehow an insult because he did something different. Making mistakes and therefore learning are what humans learn to become adults. Learning how not to have 'motivated reasoning' is not easy and is essential. Emotion is a symptom of 'motivated reasoning'.

A benchmark was provided to determine whether one is being logical. Reasons devoid of perspective (ie the numbers) is a classic example of 'motivated reasoning'. An indication of thought based in emotional, and that junk science is being used for conclusions.

Orthodoc has no reason to apologize. She did what adult are suppose to do - provide facts no matter how it may make the emtional feel. "I killed him because he dissed me" is another example of adults acting like children. People reasoning emotionally rather than reading only what is important - hard facts. Too many people worry about being dissed - like a child.

I think a famous politician once said, "Emotion is the first indication he has already lost the argument." Not to others. It should be obvious (a benchmark) to the one who feels dissed.

[Undertoad]

What kind of Doctor is an ortho? Orthopedic? Is she qualified to offer advice or cast judgements?

While we wait for Ortho's answer, Jinx's degree is in what? I honestly don't know.

[Happy Monkey]

And Jenny McCarthy's?

[lumberjim]

Ok, you're gonna act like that. Great. Have fun agreeing with each other in this thread. I'm out.

[Undertoad]

Act like what now?

[orthodoc]

The MMR vaccine is a live attenuated virus vaccine. In a severely immunocompromised person (including unborn children), it may cause disease. Disease then carries the potential complication of encephalitis. We don't give live vaccines to pregnant women or those who are severely immunocompromised. The conditions under which the vaccine could/might cause it are extremely rare (this is not an assumption - see http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/...ffects.htm#mmr), but every possible risk of adverse reaction must be listed on the insert. Encephalitis is not a material risk of the MMR vaccine. We, and our children, face much higher risks from the disease.

One of my children developed varicella (chicken pox) encephalitis when he contracted it at 8 years old. There was no vaccine then. It was a horrible thing to watch him go through.

[Clodfobble]

Of course. And risk vs. reward is the debate everyone should be having, both on an individual and a collective level. But that involves acknowledging that there is some level of inherent risk. It's the "100% safe guaranteed no matter what" rhetoric that causes people to mistrust doctors.

Interestingly, all the doctors I know are notorious about hedging their answers when it comes to any medical knowledge. Every procedure carries risk; every assumption could always use more research. Except this one thing.

[orthodoc]

The link I provided above is to a page that specifically discusses vaccine risks. This is public information. More importantly, Vaccine Information Sheets (VISs), which provide information on the benefits and risks of the vaccine to be given, are required by law to be given to every patient/guardian prior to them receiving the vaccine. See http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/...facts-vis.html.

You're right, clod, every procedure carries risk. The material risks from vaccines are very, very small. Nevertheless, every medical office provides information on those risks with every vaccination.

Eta - That said, you and LJ have both expressed frustration with feeling that providers were too overbearing in encouraging immunization. It's probably the most successful, best-documented public health measure. Just as you are passionate on the topic, most physicians, after learning about the rates, complications, and mortality due to these diseases prior to the availability of vaccines and the drop in those measures after, tend to be passionate about it too.

[Lamplighter]

Using death to assess risks is an extremely stringent end point.
Even using the signs and symptoms of the disease is quite narrow,
and fails to describe the entire situation of many families.
Some families have stay-at-home mothers or fathers... but not all.

For example, a working mother may be faced with difficult issues of child care
if/when the child becomes ill with an otherwise preventable disease.

If that working mother is also a single working mother,
the situation probably even more difficult.

If that single working mother is also low income, a sick child can lead
to significant loss of income... and possibly even the loss of her job.

To think about a single, working, man taking time off from his job
to care for his sick child is yet another POV ... for me that's almost too weird !

[Griff]

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/...ffects.htm#mmr
Some numbers by the vaccine people. Note what counts as a moderate reaction.
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.

The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.

Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.

Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.

Mild Problems

Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)

If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.

Moderate Problems

Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

Severe Problems (Very Rare)

Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage

These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.

It was a long time ago, but here is my 2 cents from my sometimes selective memory. My kids got all the recommended vaccines. With the older girl we were able to spread out the shots over a longer schedule and were able to get some vaccines commonly given in multiples as individual shots on individual days. She had no significant issues just mild swelling and fever. With the younger the politics of vaccination were in play and we were badgered into pretty much following their schedule. Little Griff had significant swelling and fever and gave us at least one long over-night of screaming baby with associated parental guilt. Beating up on vaccine skeptics is common place even among people who normally question the interplay of government and corporations. I get that it's important, many of my age-mates were exposed to German measles en utero and suffered serious birth defects. I just think that people are unable or unwilling to discuss this topic like adults because, maybe rightly, it could suppress vaccination numbers. This lack of discussion can itself harm children because 1 in 3000 is significant, at least to the 1 in 3000.

[Aliantha]

We are given an info sheet with every vaccination our kids get. I told them last time not to waste the paper, but they insisted i have it anyway. Apparently it is required.

None of my kids have ever shown the slightest reaction. Lucky for us i guess.

[orthodoc]

The seizure mentioned in the risk sheet is caused by fever, i.e. a febrile seizure. Some children are susceptible to them and will get them when their temp goes up. They are not epileptic seizures. Stressful for parents but they can happen with any fever - due to a cold, teething, etc.

I meant to say last night that immunization can always be done; it's not an all or nothing decision. There are schedules for vaccination at any age. If anyone is interested in more information, I'd suggest the vaccine pages at www.cdc.gov for a start.

[Undertoad]

Clod said only about a week ago that I challenge because I care, and that is the case. Any other posters, I would simply ignore. We had no idea our bully compatriot was capable of this level of emotion and I had no concept that I was capable of inflicting it.

You are free to kick my ass next time we get together because I have found a way to be a dick to a friend. I don't have many friends IRL and this is one reason why.

[jimhelm]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Clod said only about a week ago that I challenge because I care, and that is the case. Any other posters, I would simply ignore. We had no idea our bully compatriot was capable of this level of emotion and I had no concept that I was capable of inflicting it.

You are free to kick my ass next time we get together because I have found a way to be a dick to a friend. I don't have many friends IRL and this is one reason why.

This level of emotion?

Frustration an emotion? Disappointment?

The only thing I've said in this thread was that we did what we did and why. The rest has been defending myself from repeated attacks and judgements.

I've pointed out that you were frustrating me by ignoring what I said. And just in case you still haven't gotten that, it is this:

We DID do as much research as was possible about this. We DID weigh the risk vs reward carefully. We chose the path that presented less risk at that time. A course that could be altered when more knowledge became available. It is not too late for my kids to have inoculations. If there comes a day when we feel that the reward outweighs the risk, either because the vaccines become less risky, or because the diseases become more likely to contract, I am not opposed to having them done.

Read that three times, tw, you cocksucker. You just keep on ignoring the facts I present, and focus on the flashes of anger. Why? Motivated reasoning. You expect me to be childish and emotional, so that's what you see. If you had read my posts three times, you'd have noticed that I kept repeating that no one was getting the disease they wanted to immunize against, and some people were being hurt by the vaccine. Those are facts. You say ortho presented facts and numbers. I must have missed those. Just because her opinion coincides with yours does not make it fact. She also said I smeared all doctors. Is that a fact? Or did you lie to make your point? Don't answer. Please.

Here's a tip for you, tw: The transmission of information depends on both the signal and the reception. The way you construct your posts is borderline ridiculous. If it requires three readings to comprehend, then you need to adjust your signal. If people don't understand what you're saying because it is so convoluted that they get a headache from it, they will simply skim it and forget it. You're not hearing what I'm saying, but that's par for the course. Read? You only write.

Anyway, Tony. You decided to pick shit and ask what kind of degree jinx has, when you know good and goddamn well that she has none. Nor do I. And you asked that question with the intent of invalidating her qualification to offer advice or cast judgement on this topic. Thing is, I have offered no advice, cast no judgement about vaccinating.

You'll say that was just in response to my asking about orthos degree. But I was actually asking because I didn't know the answer. The answer is that she is a family doctor, with experience on this topic. Good answer. I respect her opinion more knowing that, and understand her reaction better. But she was still trying to convince me that I had been wrong headed and reckless. She sees that now, I think. Thank you for that apology, ortho. I'm sorry if you felt like I accused you and your colleagues of collusion with big pharma. I only intended to highlight the way that money drives the medical industry just as it does all of them. Family practice doctors, in my opinion, are motivated more by altruistic goals than financial ones.
As for happy monkey and the jenny McCarthy shot....

Here's what you're doing.... It is generally accepted that she is a cuckoo bird. An MTV personality. Easily discredited and ridiculed. So, you want to align her with us because if she agrees with us, then we must be cuckoo too. Well, for the third time, at the time we made our decision, miss McCarthy was not involved in the debate. She was probably still on MTV, or shooting porn. So, that's extra shitty of you. Not only is it a crap way to argue, it's dishonest.

Yours was the comment that put me over the top on this. Congrats.
Prior to that, you did not participate in recent discussion. Your chiming in at that point with that reference said to me that no one is actually hearing what I'm saying, so why bother saying any more? I'm just going around in circles defending my decision from people that are not actually my friends. Fruitless.

That's the difference between real life friends and online friends. Online, there is still that element of performance that makes us want to win an argument. So we say shitty things we would never say in person.

I am dissapoint.