Vaccination & epidemic

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But right here in the thread we have someone who has spent probably 16 years studying medicine and who does have kids. You dismiss her beliefs as conspiracy theory.

I am not sure what gave you that impression. I did ask if there were financial pressures on doctors to maintain vaccination quotas. She denied knowledge of it. I have no reason to disbelieve her on that point. It does not mean it's not happening, though.

Doctors offices are businesses. Big practices are organized like big businesses. They get paid by the job, just like a mechanic. If a young doctor in a big practice is not overseen and reviewed by seniors, I'd be very surprised. If that young doctor had a noticeably higher percentage of unvaccinated patients, there would be questions asked. That doctor I mentioned seemed quite upset that we were delaying the mmr vaccine. Not frantic, but frustrated to be sure. Maybe offended that we were questioning her recommendation. ... anyway, if she HAD seen 'so many kids die of measles' it would have HAD to have been in another country. But she didn't say that. So she was deceptive at best. She was trying to scare us into doing as she wanted.

I don't recall discounting orthos experience or acumen. Although, as far as I know, she is neither an immunologist, nor a pediatrician. What kind of Doctor is an ortho? Orthopedic? Is she qualified to offer advice or cast judgements?

I recall saying that I knew I was not going to change her mind. But, instead of affording me the same respect, she chose to lecture me on the benefits of vaccines, and she chose to state that I smeared all hard working physicians by questioning their motivation. She chose to talk down to me as though I were ignorant about this topic. I'm not. I may not have the same priorities as she does, but I'm not uninformed. I know that the sun causes the rooster to crow.

A Phd does not confer intelligence. It does not even mean you have a better source of information anymore. She mentioned journals. Who publishes those? It's not conspiracy. It's business. Pharma companies see doctors as front line salespeople. If any one has a biased source of information, Its doctors. Couple that with the inherent superiority complex they usually develop, and I'm sorry, but I'll think for myself. I accept the information she offers. I'll weigh it against the risk myself.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I did ask if there were financial pressures on doctors to maintain vaccination quotas. She denied knowledge of it. I have no reason to disbelieve her on that point. It does not mean it's not happening, though.

What kind of Doctor is an ortho? Orthopedic? Is she qualified to offer advice or cast judgements?


She mentioned journals. Who publishes those?

I'm late to the conversation; I was driving all day. I'm sorry LJ has left.

For anyone else who wonders if doctors are under pressure to 'maintain vaccination quotas', the answer is no. Vaccines do not make money. They are break-even at best, sometimes a money-loser. Most pharm companies have gotten out of manufacturing vaccines because of the Jenny McCarthy craziness and the huge lawsuit settlements given by jurors who believed Jenny McCarthy rather than the facts. The few remaining vaccine manufacturers sometimes can't keep production up, and we experience shortages at times. This has the potential to bite us big-time, in the next pandemic.

Procedures are what make a profit, because that's what insurance companies have decided to pay most for. Vaccines make nothing.

What kind of doctor am I? I've been a family physician since 1986 and have seen MANY children because, in Ontario, pediatricians are strictly referral specialists. No one is allowed to take their children to a pediatrician for primary care. Family docs see all the kids for preventive and primary care. I'm currently finishing a residency in Preventive Medicine and Occupational/Environmental Medicine. I will finish my Master of Public Health next spring. I'll write board exams next fall that will require that I have a specialist's level of knowledge about vaccines and immunizations. My pre-medical degree was a double major in biochemistry and chemistry. But it doesn't matter how qualified I am. That's not going to change anyone's mind who thinks vaccines harm us and that all doctors are in league with Big Pharm to get rich by forcing immunizations on the public.

Who publishes scientific and medical journals? They are edited by peer-review committees of respected scientists who examine submitted papers for study design, quality, and contribution to existing knowledge. Anyone who publishes a paper or serves on an editorial board must disclose all potential conflicts of interest. Big Pharm does not publish the journals.

I think a question was asked about whether there is any evidence that measles, mumps, and rubella actually cause harm greater than the vaccines against them do. Rubella is a mild illness in the sufferer, but a scourge when unborn children encounter it. An unvaccinated person could have rubella and not even realize it, communicate it to an unvaccinated pregnant woman, and the result would be catastrophic damage to the baby. Mumps causes deafness and orchitis resulting in infertility. Measles is what causes encephalitis, not the vaccine. It also kills via pneumonia. There is no treatment for these diseases. They're virus-caused and we don't have good antivirals against them.

Public and preventive health are concerned with the social contract. They focus on the health of populations, and vaccination is a population issue. When the herd is immune, it's protected; when a significant proportion is not immune, disease outbreaks occur. We didn't see measles, mumps, and rubella for a few decades in the late 20th century because immunization rates were extremely high. Now we're seeing outbreaks as a result of immunization refusal. Not lecturing; it's just information.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

Measles is what causes encephalitis, not the vaccine.

Encephalitis is a known potential side effect of the MMR vaccine. Of course the corollary assumption is that it's rare, but check your package insert. It's written right there.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

... instead of affording me the same respect, she chose to lecture me on the benefits of vaccines ... she chose to talk down to me as though I were ignorant about this topic.

LJ, I apologize for losing my temper and lecturing you rather than providing information friend-to-friend. You're not ignorant, you're not stupid, and it's clear that you care very very much about your children's wellbeing. You listened to the information that your wife gathered at the time, and you and Jinx decided how to best protect your children's interests.

Being passionate about my understanding doesn't make it acceptable to make you feel that you've been assaulted or judged. That's how I came across, although I didn't mean it that way - but it's how I came across. I'm sorry.

I hope you'll accept my apology. You and I both want the best for your children, for my children, for the rest of us. We're well-meaning people. I hope we can share information and discuss concerns and opinions without alienating each other.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I recall saying that I knew I was not going to change her mind. But, instead of affording me the same respect, she chose to lecture me on the benefits of vaccines, and she chose to state that I smeared all hard working physicians by questioning their motivation. She chose to talk down to me as though I were ignorant about this topic. I'm not.

First, this is exactly what I am talking about. Orthodoc provided facts. Those 'feeling' are what many adult do when they added their own emotions and bases to what was obviously a post of facts.

If anyone deserves insult and an apology, it is Orthodoc. Since she has provided facts that coincide with well understood research. And because the research done by lumberjim is completely not apparent.

Orthodoc has done what many have to do when the more easily emotional get emotional. Apologize so as to be political. But in reality, these fears of vaccines is not supported by any facts with perspective. In a logical world, the persion making conclusions without such facts (by only providing credibility to Jenny McCarthy and other anti-social types) would apologize for contributing to myths, hearsay, and lies.

If lumberjim was concerned with the tone, that is the first indication that he is ignoring what is only and most important. The facts.

Second, for some reason, lumberjim is concerned with changing opinions. As if victory was the purpose or important. Those are somewhere between secondary and irrelevant. Facts and perspective are relevant. Does not matter that he does not like the facts. As if the facts were somehow an insult because he did something different. Making mistakes and therefore learning are what humans learn to become adults. Learning how not to have 'motivated reasoning' is not easy and is essential. Emotion is a symptom of 'motivated reasoning'.

A benchmark was provided to determine whether one is being logical. Reasons devoid of perspective (ie the numbers) is a classic example of 'motivated reasoning'. An indication of thought based in emotional, and that junk science is being used for conclusions.

Orthodoc has no reason to apologize. She did what adult are suppose to do - provide facts no matter how it may make the emtional feel. "I killed him because he dissed me" is another example of adults acting like children. People reasoning emotionally rather than reading only what is important - hard facts. Too many people worry about being dissed - like a child.

I think a famous politician once said, "Emotion is the first indication he has already lost the argument." Not to others. It should be obvious (a benchmark) to the one who feels dissed.