Carter: America tortures - Page 5

Undertoad · 10-16-2007, 06:09 PM

I really have no idea what the reliability is of any type of interrogation. All I've heard is a bag of wind from both sides, and never from anybody with an actual background in the matter.

jinx · 10-16-2007, 06:15 PM

The CIA lady that was being interviewed on one of the TVs I was watching while on the treadmill a couple days ago would not discuss any of the things we actually do to prisoners (cause the terrorists are watching and train against the stuff we admit to doing)but was sure none of it was torture.
She was very proud of the "thousands" of intelligence reports that have been generated by coercing said prisoners (in non-torturous ways of course). Would not discuss how many of those thousands were at all accurate... came off sounding like real jackass imo.

TheMercenary · 10-16-2007, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

She was very proud of the "thousands" of intelligence reports that have been generated by coercing said prisoners (in non-torturous ways of course). Would not discuss how many of those thousands were at all accurate... came off sounding like real jackass imo.

Maybe to you, but she is right on target. No one needs to know the details IMHO.

TheMercenary · 10-16-2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I really have no idea what the reliability is of any type of interrogation. All I've heard is a bag of wind from both sides, and never from anybody with an actual background in the matter.

I have a very good friend who is currently in Iraq as a GS worker with NCIS as an interrogator.

This can give you some insight. I gave it to a young kid in HS 2 years ago. He is now a Army interrogator.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...16011532&itm=3

There is a new one out on the subject that I have not read yet but just ordered. Looks good.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...51221124&itm=1

tw · 10-16-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I really have no idea what the reliability is of any type of interrogation. All I've heard is a bag of wind from both sides, and never from anybody with an actual background in the matter.

But you have direct quotes from people who do this stuff. We have long known from professionals that torture results in inconclusive facts and more often results in lies. Furthermore, a tortured man cannot be 'read' or tested with a 'lie detector' test. A man who talks without torture can be 'read' and can tested with a lie detector machine. Professional interrogators state this repeatedly.

From the BBC of September 2006 entitled The jihadi who turned 'supergrass' and also quoted in The Cellar on 30 September 2006 as Why does America need Secret Prisons?

Quote:

"I believed that the police were very cruel and used torture to get their answers," he said.

But Mr Abbas was in for a surprise. He was treated with civility and Muslim respect.

As a result, Nasir Abbas blew open the entire terrorist organization called Jemaah Islamiyah - also known as the Bali bombers. Those who remain free quickly separated from Jemaah Islamiyah and are rumored to have formed small isolated terrorist cells. Why? Mr Abbas was not tortured. Therefore he could cooperate in response to his own convictions.

Same is reported on America's earliest interrogators in a finally not secret gathering reported in The Washington Post on 6 Oct 2007 entitled Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII and also posted in The Cellar.

Quote:

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

Blunt criticism of modern enemy interrogations was a common refrain at the ceremonies held beside the Potomac River near Alexandria. ...

The interrogators had standards that remain a source of pride and honor.

"During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone," said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. "We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I'm proud to say I never compromised my humanity."

The reason to justify torture is an assumption that a tortured man will talk. Yes. And professional interrogators then note how few truths are mixed with too many lies. Torture is when the interrogator has no idea and no way of knowing what is truth – and desperately needs to know that truth. But torture often results in statements that cannot be confirmed by all common means of judging validity, is often what the interrogators want to hear, and resulting statements are too often completely bogus. Torture so routinely results in bad information as to even create a long list of phony Orange alerts.

When does torture work? When some ‘feel’ it must work. After all, anyone tortured will tell only truths – right? Therefore all that torture in Abu Ghriad with the arrival of Gen Miller got confessions of WMDs, terrorists hiding in America, and Orange Alert attacks on the Prudential Building in Newark and the Golden Gate Bridge.

TheMercenary · 10-16-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw

Therefore all that torture in Abu Ghriad with the arrival of Gen Miller got confessions of WMDs, terrorists hiding in America, and Orange Alert attacks on the Prudential Building in Newark and the Golden Gate Bridge.

That was more like prisoner abuse, not torture, used in an effort to "soften up the prisoners" for the interrogators according to the reports. All of the pics that came out of Abu Ghraib showed prisoner abuse, none of them were torture sessions in an effort to directly get info.

Clodfobble · 10-16-2007, 08:26 PM

I believe that in fact there is less torture now than there has been in the past, precisely because of the explosion in digital cameras that allowed us the unexpected glimpses into Abu Ghraib and others. The truth is you can't get away with anything these days.

A friend of my dad's served during Vietnam as a translator. The vast majority of his job was translating what prisoners were saying as they were being interrogated. According to him, he never saw a single prisoner leave the room alive, period.

TheMercenary · 10-16-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I believe that in fact there is less torture now than there has been in the past, precisely because of the explosion in digital cameras that allowed us the unexpected glimpses into Abu Ghraib and others. The truth is you can't get away with anything these days.

A friend of my dad's served during Vietnam as a translator. The vast majority of his job was translating what prisoners were saying as they were being interrogated. According to him, he never saw a single prisoner leave the room alive, period.

Yea, times have changed quite a bit. Even then if you have enough people involved someone is eventually going to spill the beans on what went on if wholescale illegal activity was going on.

Aliantha · 10-17-2007, 04:45 AM

BTW UG, if that's how you respond to people who ask for clarification it's no wonder people don't listen to you.

Aliantha · 10-17-2007, 06:15 PM

That would be 'a good idea' Kitsune.

Griff · 10-17-2007, 06:22 PM

What caused Kitsune to hate America?

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-17-2007, 11:08 PM

I'm not going to tell you he does; just that the antidemocracy oids do this all the time, and you know how I feel about them. I thank Kits for clarifying; this is good. However, I don't see any necessity at all for such quotemarking -- I never do it wrt the war.

Aliantha, tone also matters in inquiry -- it can come off throroughly and wrongly rhetorical.

I did say I can point you to some things to look at. This guy Barnett is one busy li'l blogger, and his site seems a pretty good introduction to what he's all about. I can't expect everyone to have read his books but I will say they are worth the reading. I'm only certain two Cellar Dwellars have read either of Barnett's books: myself and tw -- who's had less of substance to say on them than I have, and I haven't said much.

Thomas P.M. Barnett -- what I've seen of this guy's works leaves me impressed and fascinated.

Flint · 10-17-2007, 11:13 PM

Somebody has a crush on Thomas P. M. Barnett!

Urbane Guerrilla · 10-17-2007, 11:40 PM

I can spare you a big wet kiss too, Flint! :p

10-23-2007, 10:37 PM

I want to win, but not at all costs or with any tactic.
That is not winning.
We cannot win in Iraq, we invaded a nation that was not a threat just to steal their oil.
If we leave them with all of their natural resources in their hands... that alone is as close as we can hope to come to victory.

10-16-2007, 06:15 PM	#2
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	The CIA lady that was being interviewed on one of the TVs I was watching while on the treadmill a couple days ago would not discuss any of the things we actually do to prisoners (cause the terrorists are watching and train against the stuff we admit to doing)but was sure none of it was torture. She was very proud of the "thousands" of intelligence reports that have been generated by coercing said prisoners (in non-torturous ways of course). Would not discuss how many of those thousands were at all accurate... came off sounding like real jackass imo. __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

10-17-2007, 04:45 AM	#9
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	BTW UG, if that's how you respond to people who ask for clarification it's no wonder people don't listen to you. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-17-2007, 06:15 PM	#10
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	That would be 'a good idea' Kitsune. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-17-2007, 06:22 PM	#11
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	What caused Kitsune to hate America? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

10-17-2007, 11:08 PM	#12
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I'm not going to tell you he does; just that the antidemocracy oids do this all the time, and you know how I feel about them. I thank Kits for clarifying; this is good. However, I don't see any necessity at all for such quotemarking -- I never do it wrt the war. Aliantha, tone also matters in inquiry -- it can come off throroughly and wrongly rhetorical. I did say I can point you to some things to look at. This guy Barnett is one busy li'l blogger, and his site seems a pretty good introduction to what he's all about. I can't expect everyone to have read his books but I will say they are worth the reading. I'm only certain two Cellar Dwellars have read either of Barnett's books: myself and tw -- who's had less of substance to say on them than I have, and I haven't said much. Thomas P.M. Barnett -- what I've seen of this guy's works leaves me impressed and fascinated. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

10-16-2007, 06:09 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I really have no idea what the reliability is of any type of interrogation. All I've heard is a bag of wind from both sides, and never from anybody with an actual background in the matter.

10-16-2007, 08:26 PM	#7
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	I believe that in fact there is less torture now than there has been in the past, precisely because of the explosion in digital cameras that allowed us the unexpected glimpses into Abu Ghraib and others. The truth is you can't get away with anything these days. A friend of my dad's served during Vietnam as a translator. The vast majority of his job was translating what prisoners were saying as they were being interrogated. According to him, he never saw a single prisoner leave the room alive, period.

10-17-2007, 11:13 PM	#13
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Somebody has a crush on Thomas P. M. Barnett! __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

10-17-2007, 11:40 PM	#14
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I can spare you a big wet kiss too, Flint! :p __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

10-23-2007, 10:37 PM	#15
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I want to win, but not at all costs or with any tactic. That is not winning. We cannot win in Iraq, we invaded a nation that was not a threat just to steal their oil. If we leave them with all of their natural resources in their hands... that alone is as close as we can hope to come to victory.

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