Atheism and Moral Values

[DanaC]

Again, this is no more than a statement of a belief, not an actual provable fact any more than its antithesis.
Dana, these seem to require as much belief/ faith as a belief/ faith of any other type.

There's been a good deal of work done in this area of research and study. Given that I am pretty sure in my own mind that there is no God, and given the overwhelming evidence for evolution and the growing body of evidence for genetic predispositions and 'hardwired' systems, i honestly feel no more inclined to hold a place for God in my thinking than I do to hold a place for the tooth fairy. I've seen no convincing arguments for the existence of a creator God; therefore there is no reason for me to factor in his possible existence when i examine a question like this. Because my worldview does not contain a God, arguments which hinge on the necessity of a God don't really weigh much with me.

I am too tired to start digging out the Pinker books, but the evidence for a genetic/born propensity to particular moralities and political persuasions (within each culture's spectrum) is compelling and growing more extensive. In the meantime, the evidence for God's involvement in morality seems to hinge on an inability (or unwillingness) to see us as the biological organisms that we in fact are. What evidence is there that morality requires an agent beyond our humanity to function or exist? I don't mean what philosophical arguments can be posited, i mean what evidence is there? Because there's a whole slew of evidence for the more mechanistic view.

Anybody got that link to TED's talk on political morality? It's very interesting and expresses much of this stuff (though specifically regarding political persuasions) much better than I am able to.

Exactly, the perfect example of selfish motivation unless there are additional moral values at work.

Unless? The two are not mutually exclusive. Altruism is fundamentally selfish and morality is society's act of self-preservation.


God did not make us, and he did not make our moralities. We made God/s and we made the moralities variously ascribed to him/her/them. Most likely to explain how the world works and to maintain social stability, amongst other things, codifying sets of behaviours which we'd evolved a predisposition towards.

[richlevy]

I can't say much about Atheism, but I can say that devout religious belief is not a guarantee of moral values.

Cases in point.

Jack Abramoff
Bernard Madoff
John G. Bennett Jr. (New Era Foundation Ponzi Scheme)

Some of the most distasteful people I have ever met have claimed to be devout. I'm not saying that all religious people are. I am saying that religion does not automatically guarantee ethics. This is especially true when dealing with 'outsiders'. Native Americans and African Americans can certainly give a good account of their encounters with some 'devout' individuals.

[DanaC]

On the other hand, people following Jesus' teachings have spent their lives serving others across the world, feeding, clothing, making wells, homes, etc. giving of their resources.

What other religion can come even close to showing their fellow man the love and care that christians have over the centuries?

*Blinks* Islam. Islam teaches charitable concern for others. Islamic charities fund schemes to help some of the poorest and most troubled communities in the world. Islamic charity workers risk their health and safety to ensure help gets to earthquake victims, and cross battle lines to give help to injured civilians (the Red Crescent). Islamic charities feed some of the poorest and most troubled communities on the planet.

And, much of that good work conducted by Christians over the centuries, has been an act of imperial and religious domination. Missionaries, whilst well-meaning and probably helpful to some communities, gave their help at a heavy cultural price. Christians have caused misery and distress, bloodshed and horror and the cultural and emotional dislocation of whole peoples. Christian thinkers have used their faith to justify slavery and war, political and intellectual repression, gender and racial hierarachies, and from the 18th century onwards, the right and insurmountability of capital.


Christians are people. Moslems are people. Both of these faiths have encouraged people to do wonderful and humantitarian acts and both have led to appalling acts of violence (literal and cultural).

[regular.joe]

I stand at what I think is the opposite end of the spectrum from Dana. I've experienced God first hand, my world view cannot be separated from this experience. About free will, the evidence of my life seems to indicate that I can do anything I want, when ever I want. The evidence seems to indicate that I have a free will.

I don't think that my moral and ethical conduct is hinged on my experience with God. I would say that the evidence of my life once again would indicate that the more selfless and less self centered I am, the more fulfilled my life seems to be. This in itself points in an ethical and moral direction of action and thinking.

I agree with some of the discussion so far, at the end of the day, God or no God, free will or no free will, we all will do what ever we do. Most or much of what we do will indeed be motivated by self interest, and perceived survival. If self interest and perceived survival are the only motivating factors for our ethical and moral standards, then I think we are indeed missing out on a great deal of what our life here has to offer us and others.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I stand at what I think is the opposite end of the spectrum from Dana. I've experienced God first hand, my world view cannot be separated from this experience. About free will, the evidence of my life seems to indicate that I can do anything I want, when ever I want. The evidence seems to indicate that I have a free will.

I don't think that my moral and ethical conduct is hinged on my experience with God. I would say that the evidence of my life once again would indicate that the more selfless and less self centered I am, the more fulfilled my life seems to be. This in itself points in an ethical and moral direction of action and thinking.

I agree with some of the discussion so far, at the end of the day, God or no God, free will or no free will, we all will do what ever we do. Most or much of what we do will indeed be motivated by self interest, and perceived survival. If self interest and perceived survival are the only motivating factors for our ethical and moral standards, then I think we are indeed missing out on a great deal of what our life here has to offer us and others.

I think that was an excellent post Joe. I would slightly take issue with the idea that it is about perceived survival. It's not as conscious as that I don't think. It's perceived as something else, it is survival at an unconscious level. Something carried in our genetic makeup, the way our brains have evolved. When we fall in love we are not usually thinking at some conscious level: brilliant now my genetic code can replicate itself into another generation. When we give a dollar to a homeless guy we're not usually thinking: brilliant, this reflects the instinct to empathise and reciprocate which is allowing our species to thrive.

[Pie]

Rumi, I have liked what you have said in other threads, so in order to preserve what kindness lingers in my heart for you, I will depart this conversation. Really, it's in both our interests.

[piercehawkeye45]

Humans get ethical values from their environment. So, no, it doesn't matter whether a person is religious or not because their environment is the same and therefore they have the same chance (there are other factors involved) of being equally "moral".

I don't believe in absolute morals and I believe they are all completely made by society and history backs me up.


But, Since religion has played a huge part in the creation of sociological values and ethics in our society today, everyone, no matter the religion of lack of thereof, still is greatly affected by religious ethics.

Originally Posted by Rubinator

What other religion can come even close to showing their fellow man the love and care that christians have over the centuries?

You are being biased because you can say the exact opposite. Hell, the largest genocide and imperialistic gains in history were justified under Christianity.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Hell, the largest genocide and imperialistic gains in history were justified under Christianity.

cite

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Griff

cite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

Spanish lawyers convinced Pope Alexander VI to issue the Inter Caetera Divinae, a series of papal bulls that confirmed Spain’s title to the lands discovered by Columbus. The first bull declared that Columbus had discovered a new land and a new people and recognized Ferdinand and Isabella’s title to all of the land in the area. The second bull directed Spain to convert the native inhabitants of this land to Christianity. In the decree Alexander declared: “Among other works well pleasing to the Divine Majesty and cherished of our heart, this assuredly ranks highest, that in our times especially the Catholic faith and the Christian religion be exalted and everywhere increased and spread, that the health of souls be cared for and that barbarous nations be overthrown and brought to the faith itself.” The second bull also established a line that ran from pole to pole, one hundred leagues west of the Azores.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-2536600093.html

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Griff

cite

I believe he was referring to the Crusades. In Europe, political leaders doubled as religious leaders and vice versa. In addition to the Crusades, the 30 Year War was ostensibly an intra-Christian war. The irony, as with any war, is that with involvement of mercenaries and the general breakdown in social order, a great deal of violence was committed by Protestants and Catholics against people within their sects.

This may be one reason why so many 'old Europe' countries are lukewarm about most religion and why states have either taken over religion (England) or have a real separation between church and state.

[Griff]

Those are very large numbers but don't measure up to the 20th century genocides of the non-christians Attaturk, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler (although Christian bigotry was one of his tools).

[Cicero]

~What I was meaning is that if one believes that there is no God, all of one's life is spent doing what pleases and makes oneself happy, satisfied, fulfilled rather than offering any action or thought to please God. I was just seeing a difference of focus, ie. living one's life for oneself/ living one's life to please God.
Sorry for the confusion ~

Oh that isn't what God wants? Yea that's fucking confusing.

Yes that confuses me. When you meet him ask what he wants, and we'll talk about it.

Offering thoughts or actions for something or someone, that I can not validate the existence of, seems a little kooky. Not that I am not a kook and wouldn't try it at least once, but c'mon! Living my life out of an idea rather than something that can be verified, and pulling it together from there, seems a little odd. And the older I get, the more odd I think this is. I am sorry. I think this idea in it's very essence, is insane. Of course I can be a little crazy and have chanted to buddha etc. etc. But I know what I am doing. Being crazy. It's really just me, sending good vibes and energy out there, and unfortunately, that is probably where it ends.

Just the facts. I like the facts now and rarely rely on something I deem to be utter bullshit. Everything people did for others came from people, not god. Everything that people did to harm each other came from other people, not god. To say any action or lack thereof pleases god assumes too much, and makes you look like a dork.

Do stuff because it's in you to do it. If it were in you to be kind, wouldn't that please god more than a "big show" of your obedience?

[DanaC]

*grins*

Served!

[piercehawkeye45]

I disagree that genocide should be measured purely by numbers killed. Genocide is more of the elimination of a culture than people.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide


In that case, the genocide of all the natives in both American continents was the largest. It lasted directly for around 400 years, affected two entire continents, and the effects are still largely felt to this day.

To stay with the topic, genocide can happen with any group and is a social force that has no relation to religion. In the 1400s to this day, Christians have had the best weapons, more effective economic doctrine to get power (capitalism), best centralized power setup (the state), and a religion that can be very imperialistic depending on the interpretation. This combination led to the most effective imperialistic genocidal campaign in human history.

Do I consider the intent much different than the brutal Islamic expansion in the 800s? No, but that Islamic campaign and the numerous others by different religions never had the power or capabilities of the Christians.


The only legitimate argument that exists, to my knowledge, that can argue the superior imperialistic and genocidal justifications in Christianity to other religions is that in Christianity, God (or Jesus) tells its followers to actively convert non-Christians. That process usually leads to imperialistism or genocide when practiced by a militaristic group. But, I don't really use that argument because militaristic religious nuts will forcefully spread their religion whether it tells them to are not so it really doesn't matter. All in all, strong nationalism causes problems....

[Griff]

Mao's Great Leap Forward was a cultural genocide. I fully acknowlege that Christianity was/is guilty of this but I wanted to remind everyone that communism and nationalism are skilled murderers as well. From my under-grad days, I remember the campus lefties were in denial about their heroes and were happy to lay all evil on religion's doorstep. I just want to be sure you're not in an environment producing moral blind spots.