Atheism and Moral Values

[Ruminator]

Obviously we can each only judge a matter by what we've been exposed to concerning it.

given the overwhelming evidence for evolution

Wow Dana, if you think the evidence for evolution is overwhelming; you should see the weight of evidence against evolution.

I've seen no convincing arguments for the existence of a creator God; therefore there is no reason for me to factor in his possible existence when i examine a question like this. Because my worldview does not contain a God, arguments which hinge on the necessity of a God don't really weigh much with me.

As statements these make perfect sense, and "arguments which hinge on the necessity of a God don't really weigh much with me" is enlightening and helps me understand.

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The ability to co-operate and form relationships of mutual affection and dependency have been an evolutionary advantage.
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Exactly, the perfect example of selfish motivation unless there are additional moral values at work.
Unless? The two are not mutually exclusive. Altruism is fundamentally selfish and morality is society's act of self-preservation.

Dana, I wasn't meaning any mutual exclusivity, but rather that additional moral values can remove the selfish aspect.

God did not make us, and he did not make our moralities. We made God/s and we made the moralities variously ascribed to him/her/them. Most likely to explain how the world works and to maintain social stability, amongst other things, codifying sets of behaviours which we'd evolved a predisposition towards.

I'm not used to, and am having a hard time understanding how one makes absolute statements based upon conjecture.
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richlevi, ... all absolutely true. There have been a lot of selfish wretches in christianity as well as outside it that have used christianity to abuse the innocent. Some may have been delusional and acted out of fears rather than faith, but all were horribly wrong.
Obviously these people were not following Jesus' teachings, or his disciples in their actions. Jesus' disciples suffered horrendous deaths in the process of teaching others of Jesus' teachings.
On the other hand, people following Jesus' teachings have spent their lives serving others across the world, feeding, clothing, making wells, homes, etc. giving of their resources.

What other religion can come even close to showing their fellow man the love and care that christians have over the centuries?
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Pie, you asked excellent questions.

-So why should Christianity be any more logical (or faith-worthy) than any other set of unprovable postulates?
-Why the bible?
-why is judgment a necessary or provable end-state?

Addressing for now just the first one, the short answer- since modern science and mathematics have disproven the theory of evolution's core premise of species evolving from others, and the christian world view offers a logical, reasonable explanation for where and how the universe, time, etc. came into existence; it bears worthy consideration to prove/ disprove the christian claims of God's desiring to have a personal relationship with us.
Then there is on the side of the biblical proofs, the body of facts regarding the prophecies of the Bible and their impossibility of being intentionally fulfilled by men. And yet we are living in a time when looking around us we see more prophecies being fulfilled as we live and breath. (future discussions possibly?) No other religion has been able to compare, the closest are the occult traditions that contact "spirit guides". (whole other discussion)

The long answer involves: my posting the various mathematical impossibilities that disprove species abilities to evolve from one another, and develop specific characteristics by chance. (future hopefully)
As well as posting other related, detailed specific impossibilities that evolution assumes as true in order to get anywhere.
And we really should get into details regarding biblical prophecies, especially with a literal meaning regarding the current world affairs. (amazing stuff!)

The long answer also includes my sharing the loving physical miraculous healing that God gave me to give to my little brother back when I was in high school. He was healed of leukemia.
This is a part of my personal "experiencial" evidence that I realize is only worth so much to someone else. Experiencial evidence being often unprovable and difficult to understand clearly by the listener. So I prefer to discuss and share the tangible topics. Prophecy does fall into that category for discussion.
Especially since this world is just marching along... toward fulfilling the prophecies in very literal, direct fashion.

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Originally Posted by Ruminator
I don't understand how someone who truly believes in no God can live their life other than in a totally selfish manner. It all has to come back to what works for you. Doesn't it?

And as such, you have no right to judge me. I live an exceedingly moral life, even by your christian standards. I hold myself to a higher standard -- my own.

Judging you Pie, or anyone is completely out of the question, I refuse to do it.
What I was meaning is that if one believes that there is no God, all of one's life is spent doing what pleases and makes oneself happy, satisfied, fulfilled rather than offering any action or thought to please God. I was just seeing a difference of focus, ie. living one's life for oneself/ living one's life to please God.
Sorry for the confusion.

I don't understand "FSM"?

Now, there's the ultimate moral authority! ... LOL

I'm tired Flint. What is going on in the pic? Thanks.


I agree Radar, certainly those concepts existed long before the Bible. That doesn't eliminate God as their source however, since He was in the picture from the beginning. The Bible is just simply the eventual writing down of God's teachings that had been being given to men.
The use of traditional marriage by gays is an arguable point, and I disagree. (for a different thread)