Carter: America tortures - Page 2

TheMercenary · 10-14-2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Interrogation by torture.

Says who?

Happy Monkey · 10-14-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Says who?

Says the fact that they're taking people to secret prisons in torture-friendly countries.

10-13-2007, 12:48 AM

Water-boarding is torture.

TheMercenary · 10-14-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Water-boarding is torture.

Nawwww... :p

10-15-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Nawwww... :p

As long as you are ok with Americans being treated that way, then fine.
I'm not.
If we adopt the tactics of the enemy we ARE the enemy.

TheMercenary · 10-16-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

As long as you are ok with Americans being treated that way, then fine.

To late.

DanaC · 10-13-2007, 04:12 AM

Quote:

But of course we could talk about the treatment of the Irish by the British if you want to look at a country in the western world who set the standards in modern times for the treatment and torture of prisoners.

Oh hell yes. We treated them appallingly.

Doesn't in any way alter the fact that America has given up its moral highground on torture, 'disappearances' in the form of extraordinary renditions, and indefinite imprisonment without legal process.

Kitsune · 10-15-2007, 07:53 AM

Quote:

"head-slapping, simulated drowning, and frigid temperatures."

More fraternity pranks being called torture. Puh-leeze.

Undertoad · 10-15-2007, 08:33 AM

Well here's what actual torture is, so that we remember the difference between this and turning the thermostat down.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...2torture1.html

cubberly · 11-01-2007, 12:05 AM

We claim to be a civilized society. To use torture for any purpose is to give up that civilization and become as barbaric as our adversaries. The entire Bill of Rights is being challenged now all on the grounds that circumstances allow the government to make new rules. No, the end doesn't justify the means. No, might doesn't make right. Just say no to what the Administration is doing.

TheMercenary · 11-01-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cubberly

... and become as barbaric as our adversaries.

Which is why we continually pull out and never finish these messes we start. We can only win quickly by conducting the war to win. All war is barbaric. You must take the fight to the enemy in a manner he understands, if barbarism is the method, so be it.

Kitsune · 11-01-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You must take the fight to the enemy in a manner he understands, if barbarism is the method, so be it.

Do you think we would have a better chance of winning this war if we beheaded the enemy and published videos of it? We could chain them to vehicles and drag them through the streets to make a point, just like they have been known to do. Would you support the military stooping to their level, kidnapping their families, and torturing them on television while demanding their surrender?

Why doesn't our military do these things if they are the methods required to win?

11-01-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Do you think we would have a better chance of winning this war if we beheaded the enemy and published videos of it? We could chain them to vehicles and drag them through the streets to make a point, just like they have been known to do. Would you support the military stooping to their level, kidnapping their families, and torturing them on television while demanding their surrender?

Why doesn't our military do these things if they are the methods required to win?

Because the idea is not to become what we are fighting.
At least for those of us with ethics.
Also, at that point we have no right to complain about what they are doing to others in any way.

piercehawkeye45 · 10-15-2007, 09:36 AM

Just because our techniques aren't as brutal as Al-Qaeda's methods doesn't make it any more right or justified.

Undertoad · 10-15-2007, 10:13 AM

I totally disagree.

We're so firmly in semantics-land here, that just to say what we do is "torture" puts us in moral equivalence with, you know, actual torture, things that nobody disagrees is torture.

And that's where the argument is now: Carter says "America tortures", by his definition of torture, which he has expanded as wide as he can because then we don't have an argument about whether it's ok to slap somebody. Stuff your mama did to you as a kid is now "torture". Stuff you would do to win a $100 bet is now "torture". Stuff weaker than any 15 second segment of Jackass is now "torture". And why. Because it's the only way to win the argument.

10-13-2007, 12:48 AM	#3
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Water-boarding is torture.

10-15-2007, 08:33 AM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Well here's what actual torture is, so that we remember the difference between this and turning the thermostat down. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...2torture1.html

11-01-2007, 12:05 AM	#10
cubberly Non-Newbie Sort Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6	We claim to be a civilized society. To use torture for any purpose is to give up that civilization and become as barbaric as our adversaries. The entire Bill of Rights is being challenged now all on the grounds that circumstances allow the government to make new rules. No, the end doesn't justify the means. No, might doesn't make right. Just say no to what the Administration is doing.

10-15-2007, 09:36 AM	#14
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Just because our techniques aren't as brutal as Al-Qaeda's methods doesn't make it any more right or justified.

10-15-2007, 10:13 AM	#15
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I totally disagree. We're so firmly in semantics-land here, that just to say what we do is "torture" puts us in moral equivalence with, you know, actual torture, things that nobody disagrees is torture. And that's where the argument is now: Carter says "America tortures", by his definition of torture, which he has expanded as wide as he can because then we don't have an argument about whether it's ok to slap somebody. Stuff your mama did to you as a kid is now "torture". Stuff you would do to win a $100 bet is now "torture". Stuff weaker than any 15 second segment of Jackass is now "torture". And why. Because it's the only way to win the argument.

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