Affirmative Action Unnecessary?

[Griff]

AA could be replaced by a more fair system based on an economic formula. As it stands now, low income whites who go to awful high schools are being descriminated against. Admission doesn't equal graduation though. It might be better to go to a school that understands how to meet the needs of the poorly educated, than to wash out of Yale.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

To hire someone based purely on color is the same as having token negros to empty the trash just so you can say you hired one. Same for any other color. There is an idea in America that you cannot be discriminated against unless you are a non-white. That crap has got to stop. For every racist white person you find I can show you a black who is equally racist. Hiring practices should be based solely on merit. Nothing more, nothing less. Let the chips fall where they will after that. Screw afirmative blacksion.

Okay, someone has to clear this up for me. Here is the text from Executive Order 11246, emphasis mine.

OFCCP Mission Description

The Department of Labor's Employment Standards Administration's Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) enforces the Executive Order 11246, as amended; Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended and the affirmative action provisions (Section 4212) of the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act, as amended. Taken together, these laws ban discrimination and require Federal contractors and subcontractors to take affirmative action to ensure that all individuals have an equal opportunity for employment, without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a Vietnam era or special disabled veteran.

C. Executive Order Affirmative Action Requirements

i. For Supply and Service Contractors

Non-construction (service and supply) contractors with 50 or more employees and government contracts of $50,000 or more are required, under Executive Order 11246, to develop and implement a written affirmative action program (AAP) for each establishment. The regulations define an AAP as a set of specific and result-oriented procedures to which a contractor commits itself to apply every good faith effort. The AAP is developed by the contractor (with technical assistance from OFCCP if requested) to assist the contractor in a self-audit of its workforce. The AAP is kept on file and carried out by the contractor; it is submitted to OFCCP only if the agency requests it for the purpose of conducting a compliance review.

The AAP identifies those areas, if any, in the contractor’s workforce that reflect utilization of women and minorities. The regulations at 41 CFR 60-2.11 (b) define under-utilization as having fewer minorities or women in a particular job group than would reasonably be expected by their availability. When determining availability of women and minorities, contractors consider, among other factors, the presence of minorities and women having requisite skills in an area in which the contractor can reasonable recruit.

Based on the utilization analyses under Executive Order 11246 and the availability of qualified individuals, the contractors establish goals to reduce or overcome the under-utilization. Good faith efforts may include expanded efforts in outreach, recruitment, training and other activities to increase the pool of qualified minorities and females. The actual selection decision is to be made on a non-discriminatory basis.

Someone please explain to me how affirmative action went from "contractors with over 50 employees doing government work using taxpayer dollars should document that they're doing their best to not discriminate based upon race" to "affirmative action is requiring corporations to choose less qualified people based on their race".

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

For every racist white person you find I can show you a black who is equally racist.

A racist white person can keep a minority out of a good job while a racist minority can't do much.

AA should only be a temporary solution to a bigger problem but all it is a cover up to make it seem that we care about minorities just like black hisotry month. If we wanted to help the minorities we would make it easier for them to get the qualifications most white people have but that is too much work and the racist agenda wouldn't approve of it.

Being against AA isn't racist but denying the fact that minorities are at a disavantage is.

[elSicomoro]

I don't know if we can actually ever be on a level playing field, given our size and our individualism as a country. People can talk about level playing fields until Jesus comes back from the dead, but IMO, there will always be a sizable part of American society that looks at difference from the "norm" as bad. Those who don't fit the norm don't get the cool shit.

I'm not pessimistic...just pragmatic.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If we wanted to help the minorities we would make it easier for them to get the qualifications most white people have but that is too much work and the racist agenda wouldn't approve of it.

Isn't that exactly what AA does...?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Isn't that exactly what AA does...?

It gives jobs to people without the qualifications. If we made it easier for minorities to gain qualifications then we wouldn't have to worry about AA.

We need to start paying more attention to the inner city and not just ignore it.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by sycamore

I don't know if we can actually ever be on a level playing field, given our size and our individualism as a country. People can talk about level playing fields until Jesus comes back from the dead, but IMO, there will always be a sizable part of American society that looks at difference from the "norm" as bad. Those who don't fit the norm don't get the cool shit.

You are probably right but we aren't doing anything to make it any better.

[DanaC]

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the median income of African Americans as a group is roughly 65 percent of that of "white" people,

That's from wikepedia. It suggests African Americans do not have equal access to the better paying jobs, or that they do not have equal access to the route into such jobs (e.g. educational opportunities). To suggest that in some way AA disadvantages white males in America, is to dismiss the actual advantage that comes from being white and male in America. Granted there are those for whom that innate advantage does not translate into a better job or lifestyle, and there are those for whom that innate disadvantage does not translate into a lesser job and lifestyle....but the reality is, that without some kind of enforced balance there would be little progress.

When an employer is recruiting for a high level post, they tend to take into account, amongst other factors, how like themselves the prospective employee is.....hence, since historically the people most likely to be employers have been both white and male, they have historically been more inclined to take on white male employees into the higher category posts within their companies. Though some progress has been made on that, females and non-whites are still under represented in the higher level roles in corporate life. As long as they are under represented they will be less likely tobe hired and will therefore stay under represented.

[lumberjim]

i work a few miles from spexvet. our employee base is loosely representative of the stats posted in his first post. as for the .3% native american....i have some small bit of Sioux in the soup that is me.....so....

i think 7 people is too small a sample. we have about 120 here, i think

[DanaC]

7 people is too small a sample, I would agree. The fact that they haven't just hired all white, but also all Christian, suggests to me that they are simply hiring people they personally relate most closely to. This is part of the problem really: it doesn't just require out and out racism to perpetuate racial inequality. Ending racial inequality is not something that can be achieved by the less advantaged race alone:it does require a real effort on the part of the most powerful group in the country to hire against natural prejudices (i.e., the human instinct to relate most closely to those who are most like ourselves). This same instinct keeps the balance between male and females unequal. In the UK the diffierence in wages between men and women is approx. 17.5%. Women are under represented in the higher paying jobs and over represented in the lower paying jobs. Women are also under represnted in parliament, as are ethnic minorities.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

It gives jobs to people without the qualifications.

I still don't see that. Please explain how AA accomplishes this.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

It gives jobs to people without the qualifications.

Affirmative Action doesn't do that--the people doing the hiring might do that, if they don't want to bother to find a minority/female/disabled person who is qualified. It's really not that difficult, either.

Plus, the NON-minorities/etc. that are hired are not necessarily all qualified, either.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

We need to start paying more attention to the inner city and not just ignore it.

Agreed. Though overall, it sure wouldn't hurt if, say, all public schools had all the resources they needed.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

A racist white person can keep a minority out of a good job while a racist minority can't do much.

AA should only be a temporary solution to a bigger problem but all it is a cover up to make it seem that we care about minorities just like black hisotry month. If we wanted to help the minorities we would make it easier for them to get the qualifications most white people have but that is too much work and the racist agenda wouldn't approve of it.

Being against AA isn't racist but denying the fact that minorities are at a disavantage is.

Tough crap. I say pull your self up and stop looking for hand outs and entitlements to get ahead in life. We have created generations of scumbags getting ahead based on the color of their skin expecting that society owes them something because of it. When very smart people who are not black are denied advancement just to promote a person of color for that fact alone the system is broken and we have created a system of reverse discrimination. Minorities need to figure out how to get the qualifications by working harder to compete regardless of color. I will celebrate Black history month the day we have white history month. There are thousands of places in the US where white people are a minority. Do they get handouts and preferential treatment? No. Sorry folks, AA has seen its time come and gone, I have lived it, and it is time to bury it with the idea that every negro in the US is somehow entitled to compensation because they are black. Our society is so integrated that there is absolutely a tiny minority of people who can actually prove that they are related to someone who is a slave. I really think that Al Sharpton and Jessie "PUSH" Jackson do not need help to get ahead in life.

[bluecuracao]

You're not paying very much attention, are you, Mr. Mercenary? Ah well, too bad for you.

I was told in college, after I got to FSU (the next best acting school in the US that year) that had Yale known how much Native American I had in me I would have been able to get in.
FSU would have offered me a scholarship based on it. It was restricted to specific majors, not in fine arts and had I been able to take it I would not have.
I am not affiliated with any tribe and do not identify myself as a Native American.
The idea that I could have had a hand-out based solely on a quarter of my ethnicity was, frankly, insulting.
Also, I only had to have a C average.
Ironically, by the time I graduated, Yale's national standings for my major dropped and FSU was a better school in the undergrad department.