Afghanistan

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

They spent a year developing this report, but I should done it for them
My report has been stuck on the back of my truck for about a year:

Uh, no. They didn't spend a year developing the report. They report is where they stood when it was completed, 5 months after Petraeus took command, and may not even be valid now.
Your cutsie bumper sticker, is just a less than clever statement of your opinion, and has no bearing on the realities or consequences of any actions taken but the coalition in Afghanistan.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Your cutsie bumper sticker, ... has no bearing on the realities or consequences of any actions taken but the coalition in Afghanistan.

And let's be perfectly clear about this. We have no idea if we have already lost. The consequences of not doing nation building may have already sown the seeds of defeat. At some time, we must decide whether we were already defeated long ago when George Jr all but surrendered to the Taliban in 2003.

All other relevant parties are also making decisions based upon what occurred in 2003. For example, why would Pakistan want to be helpful? Pakistan is vying for control after America leaves. Pakistan is at war with India over who will be their ally in Afghanistan. From Pakistan's viewpoint - and especially because Afghanistan is so much like the South Vietnamese government (corrupt) - Pakistan only cares about winning the hearts and minds of the victor. Doing so to defeat India.

How do we get Pakistan to conduct war against the Taliban? The Karzai government must be replaced by a government that does not promote overt corruption. But that is not going to happen. Just one of so many reasons why we have been defeated so many years ago. And we still do not yet know it.

How do great nations fold? They end up trying to get into wars everywhere. The two longest (hot) wars in America's history - Mission Accomplished and Afghanistan. And we are paying for them at Halliburton prices using Chinese money.

Even if we win militarily, how serious is this defacto defeat? And bin Laden still runs free thanks to George Jr's surrender in 2003. Never forget the disaster preached by George Jr when he said, "America does not do nation building."

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Uh, no. They didn't spend a year developing the report. They report is where they stood when it was completed, 5 months after Petraeus took command, and may not even be valid now.
Your cutsie bumper sticker, is just a less than clever statement of your opinion, and has no bearing on the realities or consequences of any actions taken but the coalition in Afghanistan.

Oh, I'm sad it didn't appeal that much to you.

I'm not sure, how many countries from the original "coalition of the willing" are still in"?
People don't usually leave the winning team

As in the last years of the the Viet Nam war (for those of us old enough to remember ),
the situation seems very similar... militarily and politically.

Presidents have a very hard time getting past the "not on my watch" attitude.
So we hear more and more often from leaders that,
- even tho our troops have done everything we asked of them,
the war can not be won militarily, only politically and so it's now up to
[insert current favorite - Vietnamization / Afghanstanmization / Pakistanimization].

So rather than wait for a another political turning-point,
like the Tet Offensive, where we won the battle but lost the war
it's reasonable to support our troops by bringing them home.
Yes, it is just my opinion.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The sentiment, In my opinion, is an option which should be seriously placed in consideration, and not trivialized as a bumper sticker slogan.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Your cutsie bumper sticker, is just a less than clever statement of your opinion, and has no bearing on the realities or consequences of any actions taken but the coalition in Afghanistan.

Heh. I should post a pic of my bumper stickers.... I have some that reflect my clever statement of how F'd up our government is currently. One says "Got Bilked?" with a pic of Pelosi, Reid, and Biden.

[DanaC]

Popular expression of hot and very deeply felt political issues has always contained that kind of thing though. Ok, granted there weren't any 'Free the Slaves' stickers on the carriages during the civil war, but there were coins, and plaques and ceramics, and other such objects with pictures and slogans: such as the abolitionist emblem of the kneeling slave, in chains, and the slogan 'Am I not a man and a brother' across the top.

From History Org.

Any political movement needs a symbol and a motto. The American abolitionists found theirs in the kneeling slave in chains, surrounded by the words "Am I Not a Man and a Brother." First adopted by the Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade in England, it became the enduring emblem of abolitionists and antislavery activists on both sides of the Atlantic. Josiah Wedgwood manufactured unglazed stoneware cameos like this medallion [at right] by the thousands and gave them away to supporters of the movement. Benjamin Franklin, always one to recognize good publicity when he saw it, thought the cameos would be an effective weapon against the slave trade.

This kind of sloganizing in European and American popular and political culture has deep roots. I don't see it as trivialising.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

This kind of sloganizing in European and American popular and political culture has deep roots. I don't see it as trivialising.

Sloganizing is exactly what's wrong with our politics.
Factions tossing slogans back and forth, never discussing solutions, never even finding out what they actually agree on.

[Lamplighter]

Well, what is a viable, acceptable, alternative to my slogan ?

Our leaders do not seem to have one, except to keep on slogging.

[xoxoxoBruce]

No slogans, discourse. Do you think any bumper sticker will change people's minds. Will they do anything other than give other drivers the opportunity to attribute your (good/bad) driving, to the (left/right) wing (wackos/angels), thereby furthering the gap between the two?

[TheMercenary]

Well for the first time in a long time I do believe they just passed a compromise of the tax bill which is the first bipartisan bill passed in the last few years, other than the ones Rhamed down the electorates throats. That is a start.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Compromise?
The Republicans threatened to kill the unemployment extensions that they have always voted for, when the rate was more than 7.2%, in order to give their millionaire buddies a tax break. That's not compromise, that's blackmail, extortion, at the expense of the unemployed.

[DanaC]

If all that is happening amongst the political class is sloganizing then that is a problem. But amongst the ordinary electorate? Sloganising is, and always has been, a vital component of popular political engagement.

[xoxoxoBruce]

A slogan is like the title of a book, it represents much more than it says.
So when you throw up your slogan, you make the assumption that the reader knows the book, rather than a synopsis given to him by a bias pundit.

This is simply not true these days, we have to stop talking in shorthand, and discuss solutions... even if it means breaking down every issue into tedious tiny sections. It's the only hope for getting back on track.

But then the devious, that lead the ignorant, don't want that, do they?

[Lamplighter]

OK, I tried above to give an invitation to discussion, but we're stuck on the value of slogans.

The US plans appear to be for more military excursions in Afghanistan.
The US plans appear to be for new military expansions into Pakistan.

What does it appear the US is doing diplomatically ?
Afghanistan:
We are whining about their corrupt government
We are distributing money at an incredible pace, mainly as bribes
Pakistan:
We are whining about their corrupt government
We are distributing money at an incredible pace, mainly as bribes

So again: "Well, what is a viable, acceptable, alternative to my slogan "?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

What does it appear the US is doing diplomatically ?
Afghanistan:
We are whining about their corrupt government
We are distributing money at an incredible pace, mainly as bribes

Or you saw what Richard Holbrooke was so successfully doing. Successful being a compromised term because the corruption in Afghanistan and the constant ongoing cold war between India and Pakistan continues to complicate issues.

There should be no doubt about this. The most dangerous country to America is Pakistan - our supposed ally. That is how complicated is it.

The death of Richard Holbrooke should have been lamented in every post by everyone IF what he was doing was understood. That that is much of the problem. Most all do not.

Every war is only won at the negotiation table. That is the entire purpose of all that death and destruction. To return discussion to a negotiation table.

Appreciate what Richard Holbrooke did to win a Balkans war by eliminating 'big dic' thinking. He and Clinton setup a peace table in Dayton Ohio after using specific and careful military attacks to convince all parties. Well that was not good enough for Milosevic. So NATO made his forces a special target. Milosevic then went to Dayton. And discovered nobody was leaving that military base until peace had been negotiated. Another perfect example of how force is used for only one purpose - the diplomatic solution.

Holbrooke was trying to do same among Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India (and other parties that so many forget to mention). But he had two major problems. The first is what everyone expects because of what George Jr did. And second, the Karzai government is mostly for the protection of the Karzai government. Not for Afghanistan. Deja Vue Nam.

For example, why was the Indian embassy in Afghanistan bombed? You should know this because it so explains the entire problem. Pakistan regards Karzai and Afghanistan as an Indian ally. Bomb the Indian embassy to break relationships between India and Afghanistan. What kind of ally is that? Welcome to a problem America has with our so called allies who may also be selling more nuclear weapons technology around the world.

So why does the world not take so much notice? Remember America’s dumbest president literally rolled a truck through the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty to subvert it. Why would anyone trust Holbrooke when more George Jrs (ie Sarah Palin) are waiting to replace Obama? In complete violation of the NPT, we started supplying India with nuclear material and knowledge. So even more American soldiers may die uselessly in Afghanistan.

If you do not see the connection, well you are not grasping what America diplomats were trying to avoid. As a result, Pakistani military is supporting (as well as fighting) the Taliban either officially or contrary to orders.

If you did not know how George Jr's destruction of NPT makes this even more complex, then you have not even begun to understand why whole hour shows on Charlie Rose with the players do not even begin to explain the issue. It is that complex. It is another Vietnam - no doubt.

In Vietnam, we were defeated in the mid 1960s. But did not realize it until the early 1970s. We may have been defeated in Afghanistan in 2003 due to what George Jr did (ie America does not do nation building). Therefore we must massacre American wealth and soldiers in mass numbers to learn what is true.

BTW, view next door Iran. Those mullahs are laughing with glee at the mess a stupid president got us into. And at the same time, we are hurting their greatest enemies. Iran has so much to thank George Jr for.