What would Martin Niemoller think about Arizona?

[jinx]

...which brings us back to the drug war and the Mexican economy, the real problems.

I was actually thinking of all the other reasons that make traffic stops a scary situation...
But if the real problem is the mexican economy, what legislation do the republicans need to pass to solve or at least address it? Instead of pandering I mean.

My problem with it is that no matter what is done at the border, human intelligence will circumvent those "secure the border" measures if there is a strong economic or social incentive.

Especially if there is no way to detect illegals and no consequences for being one.

I think it makes us less free and less safe to abandon an open culture.

What? How?

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Griff

I think it makes us less free and less safe to abandon an open culture.

Originally Posted by jinx

What? How?

We have a flexible dynamic economy, which takes advantage of a free flow of ideas and people. If we shut down immigration we stifle that dynamism. We know we have a screwed up education system in this country, which often trains kids for jobs that don't exist. If Mexico, India, or Canada is accidentally educating people who fill positions our kids don't, we need to take advantage of that to remain a flexible economy. I see immigration controls as largely fear drive. That fear is reasonable when related to the violent drug culture, but not reasonable if it thinks we can't absorb productive immigrants.

As far as what Republicans (but lets say everyone) need to do,.. On our side of the fence we shrink the market for illegal drugs. On the other side of the fence we use our considerable economic/political influence to support rule of law and market reforms in Mexico.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Griff

If we shut down immigration we stifle that dynamism.

Who said anything about shutting down immigration? Securing our borders doesn't mean closing them.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Griff

We have a flexible dynamic economy, which takes advantage of a free flow of ideas and people. If we shut down immigration we stifle that dynamism.

The AZ law doesn't even try to shut down immigration. It just makes what's already illegal under federal law illegal under state law.

We know we have a screwed up education system in this country, which often trains kids for jobs that don't exist. If Mexico, India, or Canada is accidentally educating people who fill positions our kids don't, we need to take advantage of that to remain a flexible economy.

I agree on principal, that's why we DO allow immigration. But first and foremost, these jobs need to be filled by legal residents.

I see immigration controls as largely fear drive. That fear is reasonable when related to the violent drug culture, but not reasonable if it thinks we can't absorb productive immigrants.

Agreed. Productive legal immigrants that pay income tax anyway... Btw, how's the economy over there in CA these days?

As far as what Republicans (but lets say everyone) need to do,.. On our side of the fence we shrink the market for illegal drugs.

Pfizer is trying...

[Cloud]

immigration is not a problem because of the drug wars. Immigration has always been a problem; even legal immigration has been a contentious issue in our history. Problems with illegal aliens have existed since the borders were established. The current crisis is exacerbated by the drug wars, but the problem has existed and will exist, "drug wars" or not.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Griff

I think it makes us less free and less safe to abandon an open culture.

I respect your point but I see it as a philosophical one; one that we as a country already adhere to. Immigration reform with the express purpose of tamping down criminal activity does not, in my opinion, take precedence over our basic principles as a country.

@ cloud. I agree with you.

The Senate Democrats released a proposal for comprehensive immigration reform a few days ago.

It includes increase ICE funding for border patrol and drug interdiction, a controversial national biometric ID card for all workers and a tough pathway to citizenship.

Full proposal

The Republicans have called it DOA and have made it clear they wont support a proposal that includes providing a process for citizenship to current illegal immigrants in the country and dismissed it as amnesty.

They also dont like the national ID card (neither does the ACLU ) but have no problem requiring Hispanices in AZ to carry their immigration papers.

The last attempt at comprehensive immigration reform, the 2007 Kennedy-McCain Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act was a pretty good bill. Unfortunately, once McCain got the Republican nomination, he had to demonstrate his conservative credentials and backed away from his own bill and would not endorse it because of strong conservative opposition to the citizenship component of the bill.

[classicman]

I like a lot of what I see in that REPAIR Proposal. The reality of it ever happening, not so much.

[classicman]

For redux who loves polls

Public Opinion Polls on Immigration

Originally Posted by classicman

For redux who loves polls

Public Opinion Polls on Immigration

I have said polls can be a valuable tool to assess public opinion.

As you recently commented to me...."dont put words in my mouth"

But public policy should be based on enforceable laws that can stand a constitutional test, not public opinion polls.

Originally Posted by classicman

Cafferty Slams Obama and Dems For Their Response To Arizona Immigration Law

Two of the most conservative governors, while avoiding the question of the constitutionality of the AZ law, have said it is bad public policy.

Bob McDonell, gov. of Virginia - "I’m concerned about the whole idea of carrying papers and always have to be able to prove your citizenship. That brings up shades of some other regimes that were not particularly helpful to democracy and civil rights."

Rick Perry, gov. of Texas - ""I fully recognize and support a state’s right and obligation to protect its citizens, but I have concerns with portions of the law passed in Arizona and believe it would not be the right direction for Texas,"

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Redux

But public policy should be based on enforceable laws that can stand a constitutional test, not public opinion polls.

Not caring what the voters want seems to have been Washington's policy for some time now.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Not caring what the voters want seems to have been Washington's policy for some time now.

That may be the case, although I dont agree completely.

But that doesnt change the fact that polls should not be the basis for sound public policy.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Redux

That may be the case, although I dont agree completely.

But that doesnt change the fact that polls should not be the basis for sound public policy.

You have said that twice now. Who said that polls should be a basis for ANYTHING?
Please cite, thanks.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Redux

That may be the case, although I dont agree completely.

But that doesnt change the fact that polls should not be the basis for sound public policy.

So true!

[classicman]

Cafferty Slams Obama and Dems For Their Response To Arizona Immigration Law