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[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Somebody smarter than me pointed out that these kinds of deceptions are exactly the sort of shams Moore is supposed to be interested in exposing.

The key word being supposed.

[elSicomoro]

From Moore's site:

Yesterday I was told that Disney, the studio that owns Miramax, has officially decided to prohibit our producer, Miramax, from distributing my new film, "Fahrenheit 9/11." The reason? According to today's (May 5) New York Times, it might "endanger" millions of dollars of tax breaks Disney receives from the state of Florida because the film will "anger" the Governor of Florida, Jeb Bush. The story is on page one of the Times and you can read it here (Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush).

It wasn't really unofficial to begin with. Disney said a year ago it wouldn't put the film out. He sounds surprised by their decision, when in fact, he shouldn't be.

[DanaC]

According to that site
""He lives in a million-dollar apartment, and boasts of that as well. "I walk among them. I live on the island of Manhattan, a three-mile-wide strip of land that is luxury home and corporate suite to America's elite..... Those who run your life live in my neighborhood. I walk in the streets with them each day" (Michael Moore, Stupid White Men, p. 51).""

He lives on the Island of Manhattan and walks amongs them, that doesnt mean he is living in the most luxurious place in manhattan ... In his own words. ."One thing you get used to when you're in what's called "the public eye" is reading the humorous fiction that others like to write about you. For instance, I have read in quite respectable and trustworthy publications that a) I'm a college graduate (I'm not), b) I was a factory worker (I quit the first day), and c) I have two brothers (I have none). Newsweek wrote that I live in a penthouse on Central Park West (I live above a Baby Gap store, and not on any park),"

Interestingly the person who wrote the article you pointed me to is a pro Guns lawyer active in the Pro gun lobby and part of the "KeepAndBearArms.com " group.....can anyone say the words Vested Interest? Does anybody have any refutations of michael's works that dont have a connection to the gunlobby?

[xoxoxoBruce]

He lives on the Island of Manhattan and walks amongs them, that doesnt mean he is living in the most luxurious place in manhattan

No, but a million dollar apartment anywhere hardly makes him main stream American.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Interestingly the person who wrote the article you pointed me to is a pro Guns lawyer active in the Pro gun lobby and part of the "KeepAndBearArms.com " group.....can anyone say the words Vested Interest? Does anybody have any refutations of michael's works that dont have a connection to the gunlobby?

That doesn't change the facts. If you want more, Google it. We've been through this before.

[DanaC]

Million dollar apartments may not be the average for American citizens, but I wouldnt mind betting it's very low for a filmmaker/celebrity/author. How much does the average minor TV star spend on their home? The average value of a property in the state of NewYork is I think around the $250k mark. So his home is four times the value of an average New Yorker's home. I dont think that's exactly monumental in it's extravagance.

[DanaC]

My point Bruce is that I doubt the veracity of that source. I have googled it. I have googled it and found an anti Moore campaign by Gunlobbyists, many of whose accusations I have found to be less than honest. I am still looking for some other details And as far as Facts being facts goes...well Facts are malleable and if we didnt take into consideration vested interests we'd be sold a great deal more hogwash than we currently are. All this goes to show is that there are people who believe Moore to be a charlatan and people who believe him not to be. I havent seen anything yet which proves him a charlatan I have found plenty to make me doubt the honesty of those making that claim.

Now I am not suggesting that Moore is infallible. He is a film maker and sometimes I realise he moulds the available facts to fit his particular analysis...Thats generally what documentary film makers do. His analysis is not without his own particular prejudices and agendas. But that is something no film maker can be said to be free of. All the best documentaries have an agenda. Are there occassional inconsistencies in his analysis? Probably, none of us are without inconsistency. Is he a charlatan? Deliberately setting out to mislead? I dont think so.

As to the whole Disney thing.....Why are we so worried about when Moore knew? Is nobody bothered that Disney wont distibute a film which criticises Bush and his administration? I find that the more worrying thing frankly

[elSicomoro]

Hey, find us a website that actually backs up Moore...we're open-minded folks, ya know...

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by DanaC
Is nobody bothered that Disney wont distibute a film which criticises Bush and his administration?

Not really, given what Sinclair Broadcasting did last week. What Disney is doing does suck, but the Weinsteins took a risk by funding that film, knowing that Disney had already said no.

[tw]

Originally posted by Griff
The problem is everyone else considered this before we went into Iraq.

Nobody considered this. We went into war gung ho - many with a "big dic" mentality about it. Logical justification was not required. We entered war based on facts that were fiction. Outright lies. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq. There were no WMDs. There was no threat to the security of the US. Even the Vulcans are now saying (their story has changed as they blame Colin Powel) that we did this to fundamentally change the Middle East - not to respond to preceived threats. So yes, nobody considered the consequences of going to war WITHOUT a smoking gun. Suddenly we have exactly the failures that occur when war is justified without a smoking gun - when war is justified by myths, outright lies, and a "big dic" emotion. The emotion that so promoted a Pearl Harbor attack on Iraq was in the Cellar only 1.5+ years ago.

"In war, people do some really fucked up shit" ... when the war is promoted by outright lies such as the mythical aluminum tubes and WMDs, and Al Qaeda in Iraq. All lies justified only because the poltical agenda is important and because lies are justified by the agenda.

But even worse, those convinced that alunimum tubes were for WMDs (when even advanced science labs disagreed) now say that torture and abuse are going to happen; therefore justified.

UT - again first follow the facts. You listened to the Rumsfeld interview. Don't ignore what you don't like to hear. Major General Miller, whose job was to torture and abuse prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, was sent to *coordinate* the investigations in Iraq. What happened in Abu Ghraib is directly traceable to Guantanamo Bay. Therein lies a direct connecction - Major General Miller.

Sexual abuse and outright torture will happen in war. Therefore it is acceptable for Americans to do it? Even worse, when exposed, we only blame the enlisted men - an unsized company? They were not trained for prison duty. They did not even have all 180 men because every time one was lost, no replacements would be sent (directly traceable to Rumsfeld's idea that we have enough troops). The unit assigned to Abu Ghraid would have trouble controlling 4000 prisoners. They had 7000 prisoners AND they were attacked every night by RPGs and mortars. These enlisted men, only doing what they were ordered from the highest levels and doing what UT calls acceptable because it will happen, are now subject to court-martial? 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquistion when war is even justified by lies? Exactly why the smoking gun must exist before war can occur.

What do you think Guantanamo Bay is all about? Is that justification to now blame Michael Moore - to divert away from the subject only because the subject demonstrated evil from god's choosen president? Torture and abuse justified only because no rule of law exists there. Why are "investigations" in Iraq being coordinated with those in Guantanamo Bay? 80% of the prisoners in Cuba are innocent - and the administration cannot find proof for all their lies? So let go torture some in Iraq for the answers?

The George Jr administration lies like no other - except the Nixon administration. So instead one would blame Michael Moore? Where did most of the principles (top management) in this George Jr administration get their start in government? In the same Nixon administration. A few massacres, torture, and abuse are going to happen in war. Therefore it is justiified. Instead we blame Michael Moore? Instead nobody should expect the Spanish Inquisition? Same reasoning also justified this Pearl Harbor attack on Iraq. Exactly what happens when no smoking gun exists to justify war. Then blame the enlisted men.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by sycamore
Not really, given what Sinclair Broadcasting did last week. What Disney is doing does suck, but the Weinsteins took a risk by funding that film, knowing that Disney had already said no.

DanaC said "bothered", not "surprised".

[elSicomoro]

Thought I saw surprised in there...my bad.

[DanaC]

It's difficult to find anything that isnt very very anti Moore on google. I dont really consider that to be indicative of anything other than the vociferousness of his opponents ( as evidenced by the huge number of blogs )
But I did find a few interesting articles about him and his work.


Heres one

and this one isnt really tackling the case against him, but is I think quite interesting here's another

[Undertoad]

Even the Vulcans are now saying (their story has changed as they blame Colin Powel) that we did this to fundamentally change the Middle East - not to respond to preceived threats.

Uh... Tom?

That has always been the real reason for the war. But they can't say so outright; all they can do is hint at it.
here is the relevant portion of Bush's speech to the AEI in late February 2003 hinting at that approach:

The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater politics participation, economic openness, and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward politics reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region.

It is presumptuous and insulting to suggest that a whole region of the world -- or the one-fifth of humanity that is Muslim -- is somehow untouched by the most basic aspirations of life. Human cultures can be vastly different. Yet the human heart desires the same good things, everywhere on Earth. In our desire to be safe from brutal and bullying oppression, human beings are the same. In our desire to care for our children and give them a better life, we are the same. For these fundamental reasons, freedom and democracy will always and everywhere have greater appeal than the slogans of hatred and the tactics of terror.

Success in Iraq could also begin a new stage for Middle Eastern peace, and set in motion progress towards a truly democratic Palestinian state. The passing of Saddam Hussein's regime will deprive terrorist networks of a wealthy patron that pays for terrorist training, and offers rewards to families of suicide bombers. And other regimes will be given a clear warning that support for terror will not be tolerated.

This is why failure is not an option, but also why failure means really dramatic, unforgivable failure. If they got it wrong, they've really fucked it up, it's unforgiveable. It's a little too early to say whether they got it wrong but current events are not promising. But we don't know at what point in history we are!

[Troubleshooter]

For all of you Anti's our there. A dose of science.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

During 2000--2002, the Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force), an independent nonfederal task force, conducted a systematic review of scientific evidence regarding the effectiveness of firearms laws in preventing violence, including violent crimes, suicide, and unintentional injury. The following laws were evaluated: bans on specified firearms or ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition, waiting periods for firearm acquisition, firearm registration and licensing of firearm owners, "shall issue" concealed weapon carry laws, child access prevention laws, zero tolerance laws for firearms in schools, and combinations of firearms laws. The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes. (Note that insufficient evidence to determine effectiveness should not be interpreted as evidence of ineffectiveness.) This report briefly describes how the reviews were conducted, summarizes the Task Force findings, and provides information regarding needs for future research.

Ed.: emphasis added