The Gender Equality Checkpoint

[Clodfobble]

The very idea that we need to "do something" for, or to, or about girls actually perpetuates the lowered expectations.

What I think needs to happen--and I know I'm basically alone in this--is we need to encourage boys into teaching, nursing, etc. It's not "boys' jobs are automatically better, let's raise the girls to their standard," rather it's "all jobs are legitimate, make the boys (and everyone else) stop shitting on the jobs that have been traditionally done by women." At the same time, greater participation in these fields from men would drain off some of the questionable-to-downright-bad STEM guys, leaving more openings and demand for the talented STEM gals.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

What I think needs to happen--and I know I'm basically alone in this--is we need to encourage boys into teaching, nursing, etc. It's not "boys' jobs are automatically better, let's raise the girls to their standard," rather it's "all jobs are legitimate, make the boys (and everyone else) stop shitting on the jobs that have been traditionally done by women." At the same time, greater participation in these fields from men would drain off some of the questionable-to-downright-bad STEM guys, leaving more openings and demand for the talented STEM gals.

The best nurse I encountered when my FIL was in and out of the hospital a year ago was a dude. He was so compassionate. That guy rocked.

Oh, and teachers? No way would I ever be a teacher. That job is way too demanding. I don't have what it takes. My wife comes home every day, and the stories she tells. I wouldn't survive an hour.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

The very idea that we need to "do something" for, or to, or about girls actually perpetuates the lowered expectations.

What I think needs to happen--and I know I'm basically alone in this--is we need to encourage boys into teaching, nursing, etc. It's not "boys' jobs are automatically better, let's raise the girls to their standard," rather it's "all jobs are legitimate, make the boys (and everyone else) stop shitting on the jobs that have been traditionally done by women." At the same time, greater participation in these fields from men would drain off some of the questionable-to-downright-bad STEM guys, leaving more openings and demand for the talented STEM gals.

I very much agree with this. I do think there needs to be a concerted effort to make STEM areas more conducive to female participation - but that's not about making science and tech more interesting for girls, it's about making the fields in which those things are studied less unwelcoming of them, by degendering them. Not by reinforcing gender stereotypes.

But the reason I want that to happen, isn't because science and tech jobs are better, or that male dominated industries are more important - even though they are remunerated and treated as such. It's because girls are just as able to follow those paths and just as likely to want to if the barriers are removed. It's great for the girls because they get to fulfil their potential without being streamed off in childhood to something that is simply considered more appropriate to their gender. And it is good for society, because it means we have a much wider pool of potential talent to draw from.

Absolutely the same thing applies to nursing, teaching and caring. It is fucking surreal that we as a society consider those jobs as somehow a lesser career choice, and that they pay so much less. Purely because they are fields that involve attributes we consider primarily female. When a job type changes from being considered mainly male, to mainly female, it drops down in respect and reward. Secretarial work is a classic example of that, as is teaching.

How many potentially awesome nurses and carers do we lose because boys get discouraged, directly or indirectly, from entering those fields. The further down the age scale you move, the more female dominated teaching becomes (though not, it has to be said when it comes to head teachers/principles and management). It is rewarded more as you move up into deeper subject teaching with older children - because teachers of young children get kind of dismissed a little as child carers - which is bizarre really. First - child caring is fucking hard work and requires a lot of mental agility, and second, teaching small children who aren't yours is not the same as babysitting - it requires years of training and learning about how to teach and manage a classroom, the psychology of learning and a host of other highly specialist skills and knowledge.

So we get a double-bind. Femaleness is once again the factor that devalues - and it sets the scene for further devaluation and segregation - whilst at the same time robbing boys of some of their opportunities to reach their potential and find success and fulfilment.

[Beest]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

The very idea that we need to "do something" for, or to, or about girls actually perpetuates the lowered expectations.

What I think needs to happen--and I know I'm basically alone in this--is we need to encourage boys into teaching, nursing, etc. It's not "boys' jobs are automatically better, let's raise the girls to their standard," rather it's "all jobs are legitimate, make the boys (and everyone else) stop shitting on the jobs that have been traditionally done by women." At the same time, greater participation in these fields from men would drain off some of the questionable-to-downright-bad STEM guys, leaving more openings and demand for the talented STEM gals.

THIS Clodfobble nails it once again.

Each individual should be considered on their own merits and talents relative to the task.

I like Danas comment about unfulfilled sales guys, similar thing in reverse

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Beest

I like Danas comment about unfulfilled sales guys, similar thing in reverse

It is changing I think, slowly but I think it is gathering pace. The idea of nursing as a credible and respectable career for young men to go into is becoming much more culturally accepted than it once was. I quite often see male nurses in tv shows now where they were kind of a novelty thing at one time.

The generation coming of age now seem to have a much more fluid interpretation of gender than ours in many ways. When I see my nieces and their friends together, and the way they talk about stuff just seems a lot less hung up on gender and notions of 'girl's stuff' and 'boy's stuff'. The boys seem way more comfortable and confident in talking about emotional matters than the boys of my youth, and the girls don't seem to consider that there may be any barriers in the way of them doing anything. Amelia is one of only a few girls in her cohort for her subject at university, and generally ends up in mostly male projects and she hasn't experienced any of that exclusionary behaviour that dogged a lot of the girls who went into male fields of study a few years ago (and I have heard tales of that still going on in a few areas) - the lads weren't remotely phased by having a girl in their group and just got on with working together and being friends.

These kids have grown up in an education system that really tried, consciously, to off-set some of the messages kids were being given about what was or was not for girls or boys. Hopefully, they mark the next leaps forward.

Some of the divisions are so arbitrary and ridiculous. The idea of a male nurse has only recently lost its novelty value in popular culture - yet that same popular culture assumes a paramedic is likely to be male.

It would be so nice if we could just draw and recruit the best carers and nurses and technicians and scientists from a pool of 100% of the population. Instead of shutting out, accidentally or deliberately, huge numbers of potential recruits just because we're hanging on to a narrow and reductive view of gender. Which is pretty much what Clod was saying.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I think much of the boys should, girls should, comes from parents, my little princess, my rugged lad. The manufacturers of toys and shit are playing to what has proven to sell, and kids don't buy toys, adults buy toys that fit the stereotypes they grew up with.

The original IBM ad would be of interest to see if it came from in house, or an agency. From an agency would probably get more rubber stamps and less eyeballs.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by DanaC

It is changing I think, slowly but I think it is gathering pace. The idea of nursing as a credible and respectable career for young men to go into is becoming much more culturally accepted than it once was. I quite often see male nurses in tv shows now where they were kind of a novelty thing at one time.

When I was friends with student nurses - we all worked together in a pub - there was one male nurse across the whole year.

I've just been discharged from hospital, and although the female nurses FAR outnumbered the men, within a week on one ward I had three male nurses. All younger than me, all obviously at the beginning of their careers, but I was heartened all the same. And given that the ward was mixed gastro-intestinal, albeit each individual section was gender separated, I think some of the male patients would have been pleased about this. When I walked to the Day Room I saw patients aged 20-70 (guessing). The older gents may have expected female nurses, and even been more comfortable with them. But the younger ones may have appreciated a bit of banter with their blood pressure cuffs and anal swabs.

Personally I didn't care. The only nurse I didn't like was the very brusque female senior nurse (female) who came back from two days loff and said, "Oh, you're still here then."

[xoxoxoBruce]

When I was young my peer group, which included several nurses, a dentist, and an anesthesiologist, assumed any male nurse was queer. A lot of guys were drafted right out of high school during the Vietnam War, and most had no trade when they got out. Consequentially the ones who became medics, and there were a ton of them, came out with something they could pursue, nursing. Then it became more common to see male nurses in hospitals, although schools, clinics, and doctor's offices are primarily still female domain.