The Pope reprimands Catholic Nuns in U.S.

[tw]

Pope lambasts the Curia. Not one Cellar moderate has a comment? Is this board slowly conceding to its extremists? Do moderates now fear to discuss issues because extremists will make discussion nasty?

[Lamplighter]

I just hope he has the stamina, chutzpah, and determination,
along with the appropriate number of food-tasters, tactical vests,
and Uguisu-Bari floors to see his philosophy thru to completion.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

I just hope he has the stamina, chutzpah, and determination, along with the appropriate number of food-tasters, tactical vests, and Uguisu-Bari floors to see his philosophy thru to completion.

So what is that philosophy? Have battle lines formed? This Pope clearly defined an enemy. But who in the Curia are examples of that enemy?

I suspect Jesuits have sided with the Pope. But even that is speculation. Are, for example, Dominicans lining up against him? Have Fransicans taken a stand. Or do potential battle lines form along different parameters such as Italians verses non-Italians?

Was his speech before the Curia a declaraion of war? Or will his reform remain as non-existant as it has been so far? Is he simply blowing hot air before an entrenched. too powerful, and self gratifying Curia?

Is there anything worthy of being called a fact? Nasty poster need not post again since, as usual, he has nothing useful to contribute - only cheapshot attacks. I do not see anything that even says why a previous Pope resigned. Does anyone has any indication of what is going on; of what this Pope's strategy really is? Has a underground war broken out? Or is this talk of reform only smoke?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by tw

Is there anything worthy of being called a fact? <snip>

I suspect that until a few years pass we will not know anything certain. But for now,
your questions have the flavor of those who challenge Presidential actions by Obama.
Some only see a black man as President and can't abide it,
while others see a list of his decisions for the US government
as the important initial changes that are/will be beneficial to American society.

Regarding the Pope, I think 2 of my previously postings speak closely to your questions:

loc. cit. #45

loc. cit. #49

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Regarding the Pope, I think 2 of my previously postings speak closely to your questions:

One promotion implied reform. Another implied status quo. The removal of Cardinal Justin Rigali is simply a response to a Philadelphia Archdiocese that all but protected pedophilia. Even the most conservative Pope would have / should have removed that Cardinal. And should have been followed with majore Archdiocese house cleaning - that as best I can tell did not happen.

Evidence concerning actual reform is vague. Plenty of talk with little obvious action. Apparently the Church needs another butler to leak memos. Since that forces action.

[Lamplighter]

TW: I have no strong ideas about how Pope Francis is going to succeed.
Demoting bishops and cardinals who speak out against him is only a tactic, not a strategy.
But one indicator for the future may well be to follow the future of Seattle Archbishop J. Peter Sartain.

On one hand, he has been given “directorship” of the Leadership Council of Women Religious (LCWR)
which represents about 80 percent of America’s 57,000 nuns. And so far, it appears the Pope and
the Archbishop are favorably disposed towards the stated mission of the LCWR.

On the other hand, watching what happens with Seattle's Cardinal Gerard Muller may also be an indicator
… if this outspoken Cardinal is demoted or in other ways loses power, I would view that as a sign the Pope is succeeding.

Archbishop Sartain is also a good indicator regarding opening the church’s records about the whole pedophile mess.
Seratain will "decide" an important response regarding a particular cleric in the Seattle area,
where a retired judge and a District Attorney have “requested / demanded”
the records on that case held by the Church’s Review Board.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

On the other hand, watching what happens with Seattle's Cardinal Gerard Muller may also be an indicator
… if this outspoken Cardinal is demoted or in other ways loses power, I would view that as a sign the Pope is succeeding.

Devil is in those details.

Another interesting event was couples testifying before top Church leadership on their sex lives and why sex (not for reproduction) is so critically important to a strong marriage. I suspect this was, to bishops and Cardinals, equivalent to a topless strip club visit. Bishops and Cardinals should be teaching sex 'not for reproduction' (and birth control) as essential to being a good Catholic. Maybe they could start by reading an old book, "The Joy of Sex".

What previous Pope tried to introduce church management to the 20th Century? Those 16th Century leaders have little grasp of the 21st Century. They even and suddenly discovered pedophilia is evil.

This Pope may have forced demented Church leadership to learn what was common knolwledge in the roaring 20s. So yes, this Pope may be doing some things to reform his church. But we still do not see big actions. We only see bits and pieces - details.

Who really is in control? The Pope or the Curia? An answer only possible by learning details - such as were leaked by the Pope's Butler. After the Pope's pre-Christmas speech, some expected to learn by how the Curia responded. Apparently secrecy to protect evil is still SNAFU.

Seratain will "decide" an important response regarding a particular cleric in the Seattle area, where a retired judge and a District Attorney have “requested / demanded” the records on that case held by the Church’s Review Board.

That should have occurred in every juridiction all over the world decades ago. Described is nothing new. Lynn Abraham in Philadelphia did that almost 15 years ago. And still extremists in the PA Legislature refuse to reform State laws to prosecute pedophiles and those who protect pedophiles. A problem that still exists in most states in this nation.

Seratain may only be doing what every bishop and Cardinal should have been force by state and Federal laws to do decades ago. We know the Church openly protected pedophiles in so many nations including the most Catholic nations of Ireland and Spain.

So what was Monty Python saying? Nobody (still) expects the Spanish Inquisition ... that would actually attack evil. Where is Cardinal Fang when we need him to institute reform using a Fluffy Cushion? Is that also being done behind the scenes?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

I just hope he has the stamina, chutzpah, and determination,
along with the appropriate number of food-tasters, tactical vests,
and Uguisu-Bari floors to see his philosophy thru to completion.

Uguisu-Bari floors? Do you think Big Frankie will take the Cards to the mattresses?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Uguisu-Bari floors? Do you think Big Frankie will take the Cards to the mattresses?

... at least he would hear them coming.







I apologize... the devil made me do it.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Uguisu-Bari floors? Do you think Big Frankie will take the Cards to the mattresses?

Hot monkey love? Not likely to get reckless in words and deeds like a monkey in a tropical forest.

[tw]

Likud so hated peace (the Oslo Accords) as to call for and got the assassination of Rabin. Same may be Pope Francis' risk as (if) a war becomes public. From Crux, a Catholic publication, on 3 Jan 2015

Catholic liberals in Italy launch petition to back Pope Francis
Pointedly called "Stop the Attacks on Pope Francis", the petition was launched on Christmas Day by groups including "We are Church", "Blessed are the Peacemakers", the Edith Stein Study Center, an Italian association of theologians, and a variety of base communities. All are generally associated with the liberal wing of the Italian Church.

The petition is also signed by the Rev. Luigi Ciotti of Turin, one of Italy's best known anti-Mafia priests, and the Rev. Alex Zanotelli, a Combonian missionary priest and a well-known social activist. ...

According to the petition, which was launched the day after the essay appeared, Messori's critique was a "true declaration of war" and expressed the leading edge of a deeply entrenched anti-Francis backlash.

"The arrival of Francis has provoked frantic reactions with the Vatican Curia, which, decimated by scandals and corruption, considers the pope a foreign body in its systems of alliances with worldly power, fueled by two perverse instruments: money and sex", the petition asserts.

"At first the chatter about a "strange pope" began quietly, but then it became steadily louder and clearer", the petition asserts. ...

Among other things, the petition cites a book issued shortly before last October's Synod of Bishops on the family, in which five cardinals - Gerhard Muller of Germany, the Vatican's doctrinal czar; American Raymond Burke [of St Louis], former head of the Vatican's supreme court; Walter Brandmuller of Germany, and Italians Carlo Caffara and Velasio De Paolis - came out against the idea of allowing divorced and civilly remarried Catholics to receive Communion.

Next month, Cardinal Burke (an extremist promoted by Pope Benedict) was removed from his top (some call ceremonial) position.

Justification for this war was apparent earlier. Voices of the Faithful called for the Church to respond to their parishioner’s expectations. VoF was created because the Church was all but endorsing pedophilia. VoF was, in essence, calling for a church "Magna Carta". So, in 2002, bishops in Oregon, Maine, Camden NJ, Newark, N.J., and Long Island banned Voices of the Faithful from church properties after 25 parishioners in Wellesley MA had a meeting about widespread pedophilia in their Archdiocese. This over response demonstrated how entrenched and disenfranchised Church leadership has become.

Last December, Pope Francis cited 15 diseases that infect the Curia. That tongue lashing and the resulting overt anger is why many church organizations have rallied together. Their petition exposes an impending civil war as people are taking sides. Remaining question - when will knives come out.

Corruption in this church is so widespread that well over 100 pedophiles just from America are protected from justice in Vatican City. Who is protecting these pedophiles? Suspect the most conservative Cardinals in the Curia who avidly consider this doing god’s work.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by tw

... Remaining question - when will knives come out. ...

Ask Christoph Graf.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by sexobon

Ask Christoph Graf.

That knife was in the hand of Pope Francis.
... ask Dan Anrig

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by tw

<snip>
Justification for this war was apparent earlier. Voices of the Faithful called for the Church to respond to their parishioner’s expectations. VoF was created because the Church was all but endorsing pedophilia. VoF was, in essence, calling for a church "Magna Carta". So, in 2002, bishops in Oregon, Maine, Camden NJ, Newark, N.J., and Long Island banned Voices of the Faithful from church properties after 25 parishioners in Wellesley MA had a meeting about widespread pedophilia in their Archdiocese. This over response demonstrated how entrenched and disenfranchised Church leadership has become.
<snip>

It seems to me things are a bit more complicated, at least regarding Oregon's Archbishop John George Vlazny.
On one side, he came to Oregon in 1997, and by 2004 had settled a number of sexual abuse within the Archdiocese.
To wit he announced in 2007:

“For more than seven years the Archdiocese of Portland has been confronted with claims of child abuse by some of our priests, mostly between 1940 and 1986. By July 6, 2004, we had reached settlements with 140 victims. But on that day we filed for Chapter 11 protection in federal bankruptcy court in order to be able to continue the mission of the church and make an honest effort to compensate all remaining victims as fairly as possible. These have been difficult days for all of us and I am grateful to all our people who have continued to support the mission of the church and collaborate in the effort to resolve this crisis.”

On the other side, he vigorously opposed Oregon's law which provides for assisted suicide, and made his position very public:

During the 2004 presidential election, Vlazny said Catholic politicians who supported abortion rights, like Democratic nominee John Kerry, should refrain from receiving Communion.

Vlazny's position was very divisive among the Oregon Catholics and the general public.
Archbishop Vlazny resigned in January 2013, being succeeded by Bishop Alexander Sample.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

Not one Cellar moderate has a comment? Is this board slowly conceding to its extremists? Do moderates now fear to discuss issues because extremists will make discussion nasty?

Almost all the moderates were chased away by asshat extremists like yourself.
Some of us no longer care to discuss these issues as they create such animosity elsewhere on the board.

However, watching/reading you get your ass handed to you repeatedly by noboxes has been quite entertaining.