Tightening the reins without making it appear so

[elSicomoro]

We don't want him to feel that he is being punished and create additional stress. But we definitely have to make some changes to help him improve across the board.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by elSicomoro

We don't want him to feel that he is being punished and create additional stress. But we definitely have to make some changes to help him improve across the board.

a direct answer, and right away, thank you.

I don't have *nearly* enough information to "advise" you elSyc, but I do have a lot of experience as a parent. So I'll just think out loud a little here, and ask questions as they come to me.

First of all, I don't think punishment or stress are by themselves bad for a kid. OF COURSE it's possible, easy even, to make them so, and you obviously want to avoid bad things for your kid. Obviously. But don't take them out of your tool bag.

Ultimately, you can't really compel him to do anything, and that weak power grows only weaker, eventually moving to zero. It sounds like it's close to zero already. But that's true for most of us in most situations, that's fine, stuff works, people still get stuff done; he can too. A big motivator for most people, kids too, is a desire to *avoid* punishment. Also, wanting what they/we want. The gap between those two is where the *hope* described by Griff lives.

It looks like he wants what he wants, he hopes for it (all the time, in tiny ways, all over the place) and gratifies that desire, *shrug* any time he wants to. What appears to be missing is some force in the opposite direction, to delay or deny that gratification. I mean, why should he NOT sit around in his underwear all day watching tv, or why NOT punch the tv, etc. YOU don't do those things, or things that are like those things that you may want to do because you have forces that oppose those desires. Maybe it's fear of pain/punishment for punching the screen. Maybe it's a desire to do well at work for the money/satisfaction/etc.

Think about those two examples. One's a push, you want to avoid pain/punishment. Your fist will hurt if you smash it against a glass screen. It will cost money, your money. The other's a pull, you want to gain money from working, you might really like your job or the people there. That's a pull motivation, pulling you to work instead of hanging out in your underwear watching tv. Of course, the tv might be pulling too, but that's in the opposite direction. My point is, your son doesn't seem to have ... wait. I mean, you don't seem to have a clear idea of reliable ways to exert the kind of force/motivation that opposes his internal desire for gratification. What he wants, when he wants it. His terms, period.

And that is a pretty uncomfortable place for a parent to be. I know, I've been there many times. "Too big to spank" I'd lament, for comic effect. In the best possible case, by the time that's true, other negative motivations have been developed, like taking away privileges. Also, other positive motivations can be used too. But all those need to start somewhere, they need to start where you are now.

I really can't speak for your child, or for the dynamic between you two, ha, you three including mom. What does motivate him to do stuff (the stuff he's supposed to do)? I don't want to sound like that ass Adrian Peterson, but kids *do* respond to discipline. It's healthy for them to have limits, to know the limits. It's crucial for the space inside those limits to be good, happy, nurturing, loving, challenging, safe, etc. They don't really have to know what's outside those limits, lord knows, some of those holes have no bottom. But, and this is a necessary condition, they have to trust you, that when you say the stuff beyond the limits is bad for them, they believe you and don't feel the need to test it. The testing will happen as they grow anyhow, but so does the area bounded by your parental limits. As does their ability to reason.

Which, as you pointed out, is rather limited at this point. YOU have to be the brains of the operation. Yeah, I know you know that. But reason with him you must, since corporal punishment is a very blunt tool. To do this effectively, you have to think like he thinks. And it's easy to overthink, easy to give more credit for understanding of bad consequences than he might have, especially in the moment. (most) Young kids are much, much more in the moment (witness the broken screen), and their time horizons are usually very short. Rewards that are far off might as well be unobtainable, invisible. And the punishments too. The stuff they respond to and comprehend and take account of are all close to them. They might not be real, or really realistic, but they're responding to stuff, planning. How inside his head are you in this regard, what do you know of what makes him tick? When you know these things, you can ac-cen-tu-ate the ones you like and e-lim-in-ate the ones you don't. Amplify what's already working.

I dunno. It might have to come to a showdown (or more than one) for everyone to understand who's in charge. That was ALWAYS uncomfortable for me, but there's a good reason we don't let children run the fucking show. Despite their demands to the contrary. The real damages they rack up mean something, even if they don't know and don't care. You're still the boss, even when it sucks.

I have talked a lot and I still don't know what to say to you, but you need to find something that works for him, as a negative, a punishment (even if it doesn't feel like a punishment, ok). For you, learning how to deliver on your promise to keep him safe/loved/nurtured/etc could mean a lot of things. I found the broken record technique of just repeating my initial correct answer about "no" or whatever, striving to be consistent and dispassionate about enforcing the consequences (read: punishment) to be very helpful. It helped me to avoid being drawn into a conversation which would become a debate then a persecution blah blah blah... nope.

Consistency is key. Natural consequences are lovely, when they can be applied, the fresher the better. Mutual understanding of the situation, the "rules", it necessary. It is helpful to get some buy-in from the kid. What *is* their side of the story? Maybe it is ok for them to have the thing they want. Some battles are NOT worth fighting.

I'll keep thinking man. Good luck to all of you, and I'll stay tuned to this thread.