What car should I buy?

[lumberjim]

Who ever said people did or didn't drive recklessly because their car has ABS. Besides you, I mean. I don't think anyone said that ABS works on ice, either. It's like you're making up your own argument to win. And no one said speed sensitive steering assist was a bad thing. ... and what do they have to do with one another anyway? Can you even get a car with out speed sensitive power steering at this point? You can't get one without ABS, so why are we even discussing it?

Why are you participating in this conversation at all, tw? Have you made any constructive recommendations? Do you even have a car?

You seem to be interested only in lecturing everyone about WMDs and how poorly American car companies are managed.

I'll ask a third time, but assume you'll ignore me again. ...

What kind of car do you drive, tw?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You seem OVERLY ATTACHED to facts that are 20 years old and represent a world where a small percentage of cars on the road had ABS. This is not logical

I am very careful to learn facts before concluding. As you learned in 2003 with Saddam's WMDs. In November 2010, the Safety Record reported on a recent NHTSA study for heavy trucks.

Meanwhile, the agency published a second study in July concluding that ABS for heavy trucks, ... are effective in some crash scenarios. ...
ABS were most effective in avoiding crashes off the highways, where the speed limit was 50 mph or less. ABS also appeared to be effective in reducing jack-knife-type, off-road, and at-fault collision crashes. But the study found no significant reductions in fatal crashes overall, and there was an increase in highway crashes in which a truck rear-ended another vehicle.

"On interstates and roads with speed limits 55 mph or higher, tractor-trailers rear-ending leading vehicles increased significantly. An estimate of fatal crash reduction was derived by considering type and speed of the road, urbanization, and ambient lighting condition. The estimate is a 4-percent reduction in crashes where ABS could potentially be effective, or about a 2-percent reduction in all fatal crash involvements. The result is not statistically significant," the report said.

Being professional drivers is significant. It demonstrates quality (and safety) does not increase in solutions that save your ass AFTER a problem occurs. Earlier studies said drivers with ABS are not driving faster. So reasons for some increased fatal crash rates and no overall increase in safety is unknown. Numerous studies included your numbers and then included other numbers you ignored. Why does that make you angry?

Quality (and safety) exists when problems are averted before they happen. Many believe ABS increases safety on ice when no facts prove that; since ABS does virtually nothing for stopping on ice. Why do you ignore what I said about ice when your own post was a reply (in oversized letters) to that simple sentence?

Back to the point. Many know from intuition rather than know by learning facts - ie system one and system two knowledge. Many still believe myths promoted in those GM commercials.

Does safety increase when a car (with radar) sees a problem before it happens; stops the car? Speculation says so. Nobody knows until hard facts (numbers) are provided. However some may assume they can now read smart phones since the car will save their ass. A potential problem created by one who feels rather than from facts. The point I keep making and you keep ignoring.

So you tell me. Will radar increase safety? And why?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by tw

I am very careful to learn facts before concluding. As you learned in 2003 with Saddam's WMDs.

Being right once does not entitle you to a monopoly on truth. That'a a logical fallacy. I demonstrated that ten years ago; there was a month where every time you brought up aluminum tubes, I found a post on the Cellar where you were demonstrably and clearly wrong. I can do that again if you like, but apparently it had no bearing on you, so it's a waste of my time, as are all interactions with you including this one.

In November 2010, the Safety Record reported on a recent NHTSA study for heavy trucks.

Trucks are not relevant to the subject at hand. Anyone but you can understand why numbers about ABS on trucks are not going to tell us much about ABS on cars.

Numerous studies included your numbers and then included other numbers you ignored.

Prove it. Post the studies that included "my" numbers from the 2009 IIHS study.

Why do you ignore what I said about ice when your own post was a reply (in oversized letters) to that simple sentence?

Ice was not relevant to the question at hand. It was a distraction by you.

Oversized letters became the first time you paid attention to numbers that were posted. You ignored the actual numbers until they were posted in large print. What does that tell us about your attention to facts?

Why do you think I'm angry when I post in large print? I'm not. I'm just trying to get through to you because you don't read anyone's posts. It worked! I've gotten through and given you the numbers that you pretend to care so dearly about... that you have previously ignored. Why did you ignore them before? Why, now, do you try to argue in circles away from them? ABS IS SAFER. But but but ice! But but but trucks! NO. ABS IS SAFER. 6 to 8% fewer crashes in cars and SUVs. THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. Why ignore them?

Emotional need to be right, no matter what, in the face of given facts. Being right is so important to you that you have held on dearly to the last time you were right, 11 years ago. But if you are honest, and unemotional, you know that has no bearing on numbers that exist and are presented today as evidence.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

...so it's a waste of my time, as are all interactions with you including this one.

Now you've got it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I don't think anyone said that ABS works on ice, either. It's like you're making up your own argument to win. And no one said speed sensitive steering assist was a bad thing. ... and what do they have to do with one another anyway?

I posted that ABS does not work on ice. UT quoted that sentence to then made claims that ABS always increases safety. Why are you challenging me when UT quoted and then denied that sentence?

Meanwhile, the point was that many believe ABS works on ice only because the myth (combined with system one thinking) said so. GM said so in commercials. So many still believe it.

Can you get a car without speed sensitive steering? GM did not have it long after it was a standard technology. GM routinely avoided the feature, in part, because you would realize how unstable the vehicle really was. Did 2006 Jeeps have that early 1980 technology? No GM cars I rented had it. A Ford Explorer did not have it.

You seem to be focused on many failures of domestic automakers rather then see the larger picture and the many examples of innovation finally permitted - ie Ford, Hyundai. Cited were numbers for 2006 Jeeps that defined an inferior product. And later numbers that imply engineers were finally permitted to do some designing. Did you miss the point? Also asked was a relevant question. If Honda and Toyota are so much better, then why did so many still buy Chryslers? System one thinking? Also asked was another question that was not rhetorical. Why did you ignore that question?

So what your post did I ignore?