Vaccination & epidemic

[sexobon]

Tw made a statement:

Originally Posted by tw

Jenny McCarthy, at a minimum, owes us all an apology for causing death to so many infants. ...

Clod asked him for supporting facts:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Can you give me numbers, tw, on exactly how many infants have died in the developed world of vaccine-preventable diseases since Jenny McCarthy started speaking out? For I know you would not just use some indefinable quantity like "so many," without numbers to back it up.

Tw didn't giver Clod supporting facts claiming they were elusive:

Originally Posted by tw

There is no actual number since many other factors apply - including all vaccine effectiveness. However numbers start in the hundreds. May be higher.

Clod identified his evasiveness and gave him a chance to redress her question:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

... Effectiveness is irrelevant in this case, since you weren't talking about infection rates, you were talking about death rates. ...You said that Jenny McCarthy was responsible for "so many dead infants." I ask again: do you have numbers to back up this claim,

Lamp acknowledged the context of the conversation and gave statistics:

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

... If death is the insisted criterion, then the data for only one year (2012) includes 18 deaths:

Sexobon pointed out that those statistics weren't entirely attributable to Jenny McCarthy:

Originally Posted by sexobon

Childhood Pertussis vaccination doesn't begin until 2 months of age; so, you can eliminate the <3 mos. category (13 deaths) as having been influenced by anyone's anti-childhood vaccination rhetoric. The information you provided here doesn't say whether or not they where vaccinated either, as vaccinations is not 100% effective. You can also eliminate the adult category (55+ years, 1 death) as childhood vaccination and first booster does not confer lifetime immunity; rather, lasting only 3-6 years. The potential influence a Jenny McCarthy type may have had in 2012 is 4 deaths (you didn't specify them as non-immunized versus failed immunization either), not 18 deaths as the tw-lamplighter school of spin doctoring would propagandize.

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

...A significant portion of the discussion in this thread has included herd immunity. ...

Not that portion.

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

"spin doctoring" and "propagandize" here are the sorts of emotional word-usage that TW has been talking about all along. ...

You drew that erroneous conclusion; because, you forgot to first ask (which you do a lot) which camp I fall into. I'm all for childhood vaccinations; so, obviously emotion doesn't attach. No, my assessment was based on the contents of the posts, in the context of the flow of the conversation as acknowledged by the users within their own posts. The responses to Clod's question were evasive, misleading, and not by accident. The assessment is logical and accurate. With friends like that, the cause doesn't need enemies.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sexobon

I'm all for childhood vaccinations...

Me too... stab all the children, shoot 'em too.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by sexobon

...You drew that erroneous conclusion; because, you forgot to first ask (which you do a lot) which camp I fall into....

The "blame the reader" tactic when found wanting is called obscurantisme terroriste,
as in ... you misunderstood me/my... it's your fault you forgot to ask ... etc.

If it's important to know your position, put it in your posts.
For me, it's a minor issue which camp you're in.

The "spin doctoring" and "propagandize" and now with:
"With friends like that, the cause doesn't need enemies."
These are your emotional word usages, not mine or TW's.

[tw]

Originally Posted by sexobon

Clod identified his evasiveness and gave him a chance to redress her question:

Was answered. Actual numbers are complicated by factors such as some vaccines are not 100% effective and recent discoveries that some vaccines might be losing effectiveness. Apparently uncertainty exists. Lamplighter's numbers confirm that bottom line. Numbers so one sided as to be obvious. To not vaccinate was irresponsible (ill informed) reasoning. To be angry and offensive because those mistakes were exposed is simply an adult acting like a child. His tirade (and not one fact) confirms even he knows it.

Assumed was that mothers will always nurse their children. Protection does not transfer when mothers do not nurse.