College is not where you find a career. College is where you have fun and drink beer

[glatt]

"CIS 106 Introduction to the INTERNET"
ha ha ha ha

[Perry Winkle]

I assume and hope "CIS" is short for something like Computer & Information Systems. But I wouldn't be surprised if they called it Science. I've seen curricula like that and it makes me sad.

There's nothing wrong per se with teaching specific tools to those who don't need to know more. But to pretend that sort of instruction will make you a strong technologist or builder of things is bad.

Theory for me has been the basis of what most would call a successful career. The languages and tools I have built and used are a byproduct of the practice of applying that theory. Theory is what I think should be taught as the core of any "science", even though the theory won't prepare you for a career applying it more than incidentally.

There are so many things about my career and work life that disappoint me or make me outright angry. People disregarding good engineering practice (usually just because of laziness!) and such. Mostly it's stuff I can change. I looked back at some of PZ's posts earlier in the thread and I think I'm finally prepared to force some of those changes.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

People disregarding good engineering practice (usually just because of laziness!) and such.

Really? Laziness more than ignorance? That's interesting... and depressing.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Really? Laziness more than ignorance? That's interesting... and depressing.

It is depressing and infuriating.

I can't count the number of times I've told people (with the research and analysis to back it up) that something will fail early and spectacularly and then been disregarded. It doesn't seem to matter if it's a small effort to mitigate up front or the cost of the failure would be particularly high.

In my current and past situations I haven't had the power to force the right thing to happen. That's the core of what I want to change about my career. Move up to a lead or CTO spot, join a team where engineering is part of the culture, or just start my own company where that shit won't fly.

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

In my current and past situations I haven't had the power to force the right thing to happen. That's the core of what I want to change about my career. Move up to a lead or CTO spot, join a team where engineering is part of the culture, or just start my own company where that shit won't fly.

You can fight the good fight with swords held high. But I'd bet you still won't win. Mainly because you are fighting corporate culture, not department culture.

What's much easier is to find a company with the right corporate culture.

And the easiest way to do that is to find a company where software is a profit center, not a cost center. When the software you work on makes the company money. It is much easier to push them to do the right thing.

I also personally believe that life is much better at a midsize privately owned company. You won't get stock options. But you also won't get whipsawed by quarterly reports.

You might also want to look at the Spolsky Employer test. Spolsky is full of himself. But he is really introspective about the software development process and practices what he preaches. He doesn't post often these days. But if you haven't read them. Go back and read his articles that sound interesting.

[Pete Zicato]

If you don't have an interest in programming or admin anymore, then that's that.

But if it's just the corporate bullshit, I would recommend the same thing I said to PW. Look for a midsize company that's privately owned. It's a strategy that worked for me. (Until they get bought up by giants. Then it's time to leave.)

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

You can fight the good fight with swords held high. But I'd bet you still won't win. Mainly because you are fighting corporate culture, not department culture.

What's much easier is to find a company with the right corporate culture.

And the easiest way to do that is to find a company where software is a profit center, not a cost center. When the software you work on makes the company money. It is much easier to push them to do the right thing.

I also personally believe that life is much better at a midsize privately owned company. You won't get stock options. But you also won't get whipsawed by quarterly reports.

You might also want to look at the Spolsky Employer test. Spolsky is full of himself. But he is really introspective about the software development process and practices what he preaches. He doesn't post often these days. But if you haven't read them. Go back and read his articles that sound interesting.

I'm very familiar with Spolsky's work, and have been reading it since the early days. For the last decade, I've been working my way into better and better employers from that perspective. The problem is it's hard to accurately judge a company until you're actually in the door, and sometimes it takes months of looking at things to realize you've been sold a story.

I will always fight the good fight, but when it becomes clear that the company doesn't want to I move on. Probably a reason I've switched jobs almost every year since 2006. People will always tell you they are fighting the good fight, whether they are or not. They will tell you "we are trying", even when they aren't even willing to budge their process in that direction.

Most of my jobs have been for small-medium sized companies. And the vast majority of the time has been in ~50 person companies. Couple of short stints for the government too, which will not be repeated unless out of dire need.

I definitely need to be more critical in the hiring phase. But I'm kind of tired of switching jobs, looking for somewhere that doesn't drive me to impotent nerd-rages. My next move will likely be to freelance/consult or start my own company and nurture the culture I want.

(This thread has drifted completely into our nerdy IT career thoughts. Hope nobody is too offended.)

[tw]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

It is depressing and infuriating.

Listed were courses for "Computer Information Science". But keep it in perspective. Those are college degrees for technicians. Not college courses. How would a boss (ie as demonstrated by "Uncover Boss") know the difference between that technician degree and a degree from Seattle Pacific? He wouldn't. Both are called Computer Science. Too many IT managers have insufficient technical knowledge. Only know from word association. Too many IT managers got their jobs based in first impressions. By telling their boss what their boss wanted to hear. He was buying 'miracle' machines. So the IT guy who always smiles must be good?

That is, for example, why bankruptcies are so important. Same reason why militaries, that periodically fight a war, weed out incompetents. Bankruptcies or warfare are often how to identify the better trained and educated.

So, back to this topic. Why would so many companies not hire better trained and educated employees? One proposal says that bossed have no idea how the work gets done. And therefore hire mostly based in first impressions or the size of tits.

Another proposal says that more jobs are only created only when better trained employees are hired. Only then will innovation exist and create more jobs. On spread sheets, profits are higher when less trained and less paid employees are hired. In reality, profits are higher when better trained and more expensive employees are hired. Then the resulting innovation creates more jobs and more new products.

But that is not what is taught in business schools. Innovation and the value of a better educated employee has no entry on any spread sheet. Better trained employee only increases costs. Another reason why I even met a mechanical engineer who is driving a truck. Another who had even programmed in the language 'B'. In every case, people without jobs because they are overqualified. And no longer want to jump through hoops just to be productive. Means more jobs not created and available to 20 years olds.

How would a business school graduate determine the different between that Word educated 'computer science major' and one educated in Seattle Pacific? He can't. None of that is found on his spread sheet. Another example of why 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management - when management is as naive as those in "Undercover Boss".

Others also noted ignorant managers who would hide out in executive offices and executive dining rooms. We all know why companies such as Intel prospered. Top management (ie Andy Grove) had his office in a cubical surrounded by other employees also in cubicals. Only then could innovation happen. Other companies eliminated executive dining rooms. So that executives ate with all other employees. So that innovation could happen. Since the only thing that creates jobs is innovation.

Another is UT's story. Innovators must never do any politics. That is the VP's primary job. To run interference on the technical incompetents who play politics rather than learn how things really work. So that innovators can do the only thing essential to a company's survival - innovation. Another example of what is so essential to create jobs. VPs must work for and protect employees so that employees can innovate. Then more and higher paying jobs are created.

But again, none of this can happen (better jobs created) when the boss has no idea how the work gets done.

Explained are factor that create (or destroy) good jobs. And also how to identify companies that what to make better products rather than foolishly make profits.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by tw

And therefore hire mostly based in first impressions or the size of tits.

Mine are pretty big, must be something else.

[glatt]

pimples?

We interviewed a guy several years ago who had fallen asleep (passed out?) in the sun the day before and had a lobster red face on one side. It was very striking, the pale white next to the lobster red. But he was a good candidate otherwise, so he got hired.

Edit: Heh, I read tits as zits. Must have been the Z in size that led me there.