Continuing the religious debate from over in IOD....

[Shattered Soul]

quote:Originally posted by mrnoodle
But do pagans ask for the intervention of their deities in their daily lives, or do they just pay ritual homage to them? That would affect the relationship a great deal. You don't have to fear something that lacks the power to influence you in any meaningful way.

On the other hand, a god with real power would be worthy of fear and unquestioning obedience, particularly if that god had specifically requested it from his creation. BTW, the 'fear' I'm referring to is more akin to a deep sense of awe than to 'omg please don't kill me i don't wanna die' fear.

-------------------------------

Ok, lessee....maybe I can clear some of the belief stuff up, at least as far as my pagan beliefs go.

Our Deity is more of a Mother/Father figure. They'll help if you really need it, but for the most part, they let you go your way and experience life. I've asked God/dess for help, and I've gotten it, but only when the need was great. Otherwise, it was, "Do it yourself, kiddo."

God/dess does influence me in a meaningful way. I find it much easier to relate to a Deity who doesn't have jealousy issues and homicidal tendencies.

And as before, paganism almost demands that you question. God/dess gave us brains for a reason, and that was so we would be able to reason things out. You'll never catch a pagan sending their paycheck to some shyster who claims God/dess is gonna take him if he doesn't get a million dollars. A pagan would wave and say, "Have fun in the Summerland! See you next time around!"

God/dess doesn't TELL us what to do. God/dess has put forth one rule, and either you follow it or you don't. S/He expects you to take responsibility for yourself and act right without threats. If you don't, it'll bite you in the ass, eventually. No threats of hell. You'll get flicked in the head (figuratively speaking) in this life for not playing nice. It's kind of like, "If you do THIS, this will happen." No discussion. But it's a relatively immediete reward or punishment, in the here and now, not after you die.

At least that's what I believe. Others may have variations on this, or believe completely differently.

[wolf]

Originally posted by mrnoodle
But do pagans ask for the intervention of their deities in their daily lives, or do they just pay ritual homage to them? That would affect the relationship a great deal. You don't have to fear something that lacks the power to influence you in any meaningful way.

Yes, pagans do ask for divine intervention in their daily lives. However it's also understood that it is incumbent upon the individual to do the physical work necessary to make the magickal happen. Our gods are not the divine version of Santa Claus that some Christians seems to petition for all good things to fall into their laps without effort. I also realize that not ALL Christians are this way, but there are enough that it's a common perception. "God will provide" does not mean that the lottery will be won or the welfare applied for will go through ... it means that you will bust your ass, fill out applications, go to interviews, and get a job to support yourself.

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
[SNIP]

And as before, paganism almost demands that you question. God/dess gave us brains for a reason, and that was so we would be able to reason things out. You'll never catch a pagan sending their paycheck to some shyster who claims God/dess is gonna take him if he doesn't get a million dollars. A pagan would wave and say, "Have fun in the Summerland! See you next time around!"

Unfortunately, there are a lot of fresh converts ... well meaning, but clueless, happy people who do fall for this kind of crap.

One of the BNPs (Big Name Pagans) recently started this bullshit. Okay, he's not doing the full Oral Roberts "God will call me home if you don't donate" schtick, but it's as close as I've seen ... a LOT of people HAVE donated, as individuals and organizations, to deal with this guy's own financial mismanagement and issues. Two organizations I belong to, one for Pagan Emergency Services (police/fire/ems) Professionals, and another for Pagan Nurses have both have discussions regarding this situation. The Nurses were on the verge of sending money, but luckily a vote of the membership of the organization blocked that, but they did vote for providing information and assistance on how to negotiate the maze of medical assistance applications and such. The emergency services folk didn't buy into the cyberbegging attempt.

It's embarrasing, frankly.

He even leaves the door open to ANOTHER attempt on this NEXT year: "although the original emergency is over, there is no guarantee that it won’t occur again every winter."

[mrnoodle]

[edited out because I have no idea what the hell I was talking about]

[Shattered Soul]

Isaac Bonewits?!!!? *aghast*

...I don't know what to say. I'm utterly speechless.

[mrnoodle]

But for that matter, I don't know what in the hell you're talking about, either.

To salvage myself, I had made some un-witty comment about Oral Roberts-type charlatans invading the pagan camp. Essentially that those people are useless no matter what religion they claim to promote.

[wolf]

That's actually a very insightful statement. You should have left it stand.

Actually, because so much of the focus of pagan practice is on doing things for yourself, it's even MORE embarrassing when one of the BNPs (big name pagans) starts the begging thing.

We have enough trouble trying to deal with the public relations dilemmas wrought by John Edward (the channeller, not the politician), Mad Mad House, and Miss Cleo type psychics.

It's tough being the new old religions on the block ...

[OnyxCougar]

**gasp** You mean....

"Crossing Over" is a fake?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
**gasp** You mean....

"Crossing Over" is a fake?

No, he's not a fake, he's a liar.

His cold reading skills are amazing.

[Happy Monkey]

Well, someone who lies about what they do is a fake. He's a fake and a liar. And I suspect there's more than cold reading going on. I've heard reports of interviewers/microphones in the audience line to get in. There are also severe edits done, since the actual session is much longer than 1/2 hour.

[Troubleshooter]

Yeah, Shermer and Randi have busted this guy wide open, him and Van Pragh, but it always gets edited out.

Between editing and people so stupid that they're only capable of "remember the hits and forget the misses,"even less than an hour ago, you can't win.

[God]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
I don't see why a Christian would ask for intervention from God. Wouldn't He already be doing the right thing?

Normally, yes. There are times I like to nap though and sometimes bad things happen.

Sometimes I'm watching TV and accidently let bad things happen too.

I've already cleared my schedule for super Tuesday though, this election cant get fucked up. No need to worry this time.

[xoxoxoBruce]