What is "freedom"? - Page 2

mutating string · 03-09-2004, 10:01 PM

I came to believe that "freedom" is a commodity. The more freedom you have, the more freedom you need. Oh, and the more money you have, the more freedom you can buy

xoxoxoBruce · 03-09-2004, 10:37 PM

Damn, that's an interesting position. I'm going to think on the first part, but the second is right on the money (no pun) (well, maybe a pun) (ok, a pun).
Hey welcome to the Cellar, string.

jaguar · 03-10-2004, 09:55 AM

It's true on one level and false on another. You can indeed do many things that you otherwise can't but you have a whole new set of limitations. Wanna marry someone? How do you know they aren't just in it for the dough. Now you can't trust anyone. People become attached to money too, they become paranoid about people trying to take it and in the process, loose nearly all their freedom.

On the other hand if you have the head for it the ability to say, buy an island, own your own Gulfstream 5 or spend your days sailing the world on a custom built 60' cruiser.....

In short, with money comes power but power is not freedom. Alan greenspan is one of the most powerful men on earth but knowing if you mouth off you might cause a global depression must be fairly limiting.

Sometimes I think freedom is not giving a fuck about *anything*, family, country, money, possessions....

wolf · 03-10-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
In short, with money comes power but power is not freedom. Alan greenspan is one of the most powerful men on earth but knowing if you mouth off you might cause a global depression must be fairly limiting.

I think he probably gets off on that.

Who knows what he has done to the economy "for fun" or "just to see what would happen" ...

jaguar · 03-10-2004, 10:24 AM

Judging by your dollar I'd say a fair bit.
That's not entirely fair though, questionable as his performance has been at times the dollar's slide is the market fucking your currency for not producing any new jobs.

mutating string · 03-10-2004, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Hey welcome to the Cellar, string

Thank you, Bruce. I'll do my best to be the least annoying I can be

Quote:

with money comes power but power is not freedom

I agree. But I would think that you can opt out of power. Up to a certain point, of course.

jaguar · 03-10-2004, 12:19 PM

Well yes and no. Depends how you get the money. I mean you can have say, 500m invested in a managed portfolio with any of the private or investment banks and technically you've got no more power than the average person. From another perspective though it's the money itself that has power, even if you're not directing that half a bil around it's still having an effect on markets.

That influence itself is power is it not? Even if you don't wield it you still have it.
Surely latent power still counts. Speak softly and all that.
Just some random perspectives to mull on.

wolf · 03-10-2004, 01:07 PM

Freedom might just be one of those things ... you know, like prices on a French Restaurant Menu? If you have to ask, you can't afford it ...

Or like love. The more you try to define it, the clearer it is that you don't actually have it?

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2004, 01:51 PM

Freedom is the absence of other people. Obviously, it must be tempered with society.

Radar · 03-10-2004, 02:09 PM

Freedom is the ability to do ANYTHING you choose as long as your actions don't PYSICALLY harm or endanger the person, property, or rights of a non-consenting other.

Freedom means you can buy land and build anything you want on it without consulting your neighbors. It means you don't require permission from government to have any number of any type of guns you want with any amount of any type of ammunition. It means you can walk down the street saying "Fuck Fuckity Fuck Fuck Fuck" and not be charged with a crime. It means you can take any medicines you want, have any medical procedure you want, eat what you want, drink what you want, have sex with whomever you want, marry who you want, hire a prostitute, commit suicide, etc. as long as you've got consent from others taking part in any activities that involve more than one person, and you've obtained the services or products you want to use honestly without force or coersion.

Freedom means I can wake up in the morning after an all night orgy with my 5 wives and 5 husbands, use some heroin, go to a casino to gamble, come home and home school my kids, visit a prostitute and her sheep, have an abortion, and ride my motorcycle without a helmet into the brick wall of my adult bookstore I've built next to an elementary school.

It also means I can do less offensive things such as raise my children with my own values at home without testing from the government. It means I can grow my own food or medicine. It means I am responsible for any harm I do to others or thier property. It means I'm responsible for my own healthcare, retirement, education, and charity. It means that when I make stupid decisions, I must live with the consequences of those decisions. It means I'm not entitled to steal from my neighbor to pay for my percieved needs.

You can not separate freedom and responsibility. They are one in the same.

wolf · 03-10-2004, 02:13 PM

Most of those things in your tongue-in-cheek description of freedom do cause harm to others or their property.

Radar · 03-10-2004, 04:51 PM

None of those things cause physical harm to any non-consenting others or their property; not one.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-10-2004, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Alan greenspan is one of the most powerful men on earth but knowing if you mouth off you might cause a global depression must be fairly limiting.

Oh, I don't know. When he said "irrational exuberance" nobody listened.

mrnoodle · 03-10-2004, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radar
None of those things cause physical harm to any non-consenting others or their property; not one.

If your kid was molested by the heroin dealer on his way home from school while walking past the adult bookstore (I thought you were home-schooling them? Oh well.) I think you would feel your freedom to live peacefully had been infringed on just a skosh. Of course, you wouldn't find out about it until you got back from giving head in restrooms to get money to pay off the mobster who gave you credit at the casino. What a sad world that would be. Freedom would be gone forever for anyone except the lowlifes who spring up around the kinds of activities you describe.

Oh well, thank goodness no one was tainted by some kind of narrow-minded, confining religious belief. THAT would be the real nightmare.

Radar · 03-10-2004, 08:42 PM

Quote:

If your kid was molested by the heroin dealer on his way home from school while walking past the adult bookstore (I thought you were home-schooling them? Oh well.) I think you would feel your freedom to live peacefully had been infringed on just a skosh.

No, I'd feel like I was the victim of a crime just as I do now when the government illegally violates my rights. And I'd seek justice against that criminal. Selling heroin isn't a crime because it doesn't harm any non-consenting others. Selling adult books, movies, toys, etc. isn't a crime regardless of the location of the store because that too, doesn't harm any non-consenting others. Home schooling isn't a crime because again it doesn't harm any non-consenting others. Child molesting is a crime because it does harm non-consenting others and it's completely unrelated to drug or porn sales.

Quote:

Of course, you wouldn't find out about it until you got back from giving head in restrooms to get money to pay off the mobster who gave you credit at the casino.

Giving head in restrooms is not a crime. Borrowing and lending money isn't a crime. The term "mobster" suggests criminals and criminals don't run casinos. At least not since the 70's. I grew up in Vegas and worked in Casinos. It's unfair to suggest that someone running a casino is a criminal or a "mobster".

Quote:

What a sad world that would be.

It would be a much happier world to those who value freedom. It would be a happier world to the founding fathers. When people offend others they haven't committed a crime, but they may be ostracized in the community. Some might not want to do business with them. Some won't want to associate with them. That should be thier only punishment.

As I said we are each responsible for our own decisions and as long as those decisions don't physically harm or endanger a non-consenting other, their property, or their rights, a crime has not been committed. But we will still have to face the consequences of our actions even if they are not crimes. If someone makes a poor decision not to pay for their retirement, they will have to face the fact that they are starving when they get old or that they can never retire. If someone makes a poor decision to quit school they will have to live with the fact that they can't find work, or at least none that pays well. If someone chooses to use drugs, they will have to live with health problems (high doctor bills), addiction, and a stigma attached to them in the community. If someone decides to mow their lawn naked, sells heroin, prostitutes themselves, etc. they will learn quickly that they don't have many friends and have a hard time within the community. And all of these people will serve as examples to others of what not to do and suffer the consequences of their decisions without infringing on thier freedoms.

Quote:

Oh well, thank goodness no one was tainted by some kind of narrow-minded, confining religious belief. THAT would be the real nightmare.

It certainly would. I'd rather deal with prostitutes, heroin dealers, etc. than have someone force their arbitrary morality down my throat with legislation. I find the religious right to be far more offensive than crack whores.

03-09-2004, 10:37 PM	#17
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Damn, that's an interesting position. I'm going to think on the first part, but the second is right on the money (no pun) (well, maybe a pun) (ok, a pun). Hey welcome to the Cellar, string. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-10-2004, 09:55 AM	#18
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	It's true on one level and false on another. You can indeed do many things that you otherwise can't but you have a whole new set of limitations. Wanna marry someone? How do you know they aren't just in it for the dough. Now you can't trust anyone. People become attached to money too, they become paranoid about people trying to take it and in the process, loose nearly all their freedom. On the other hand if you have the head for it the ability to say, buy an island, own your own Gulfstream 5 or spend your days sailing the world on a custom built 60' cruiser..... In short, with money comes power but power is not freedom. Alan greenspan is one of the most powerful men on earth but knowing if you mouth off you might cause a global depression must be fairly limiting. Sometimes I think freedom is not giving a fuck about anything, family, country, money, possessions.... __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

03-10-2004, 10:24 AM	#20
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Judging by your dollar I'd say a fair bit. That's not entirely fair though, questionable as his performance has been at times the dollar's slide is the market fucking your currency for not producing any new jobs. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

03-10-2004, 12:19 PM	#22
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Well yes and no. Depends how you get the money. I mean you can have say, 500m invested in a managed portfolio with any of the private or investment banks and technically you've got no more power than the average person. From another perspective though it's the money itself that has power, even if you're not directing that half a bil around it's still having an effect on markets. That influence itself is power is it not? Even if you don't wield it you still have it. Surely latent power still counts. Speak softly and all that. Just some random perspectives to mull on. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

03-10-2004, 01:07 PM	#23
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Freedom might just be one of those things ... you know, like prices on a French Restaurant Menu? If you have to ask, you can't afford it ... Or like love. The more you try to define it, the clearer it is that you don't actually have it? __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

03-09-2004, 10:01 PM	#16
mutating string Questionist Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 8	I came to believe that "freedom" is a commodity. The more freedom you have, the more freedom you need. Oh, and the more money you have, the more freedom you can buy

03-10-2004, 01:51 PM	#24
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Freedom is the absence of other people. Obviously, it must be tempered with society. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

03-10-2004, 02:09 PM	#25
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Freedom is the ability to do *ANYTHING* you choose as long as your actions don't PYSICALLY harm or endanger the person, property, or rights of a non-consenting other. Freedom means you can buy land and build anything you want on it without consulting your neighbors. It means you don't require permission from government to have any number of any type of guns you want with any amount of any type of ammunition. It means you can walk down the street saying "Fuck Fuckity Fuck Fuck Fuck" and not be charged with a crime. It means you can take any medicines you want, have any medical procedure you want, eat what you want, drink what you want, have sex with whomever you want, marry who you want, hire a prostitute, commit suicide, etc. as long as you've got consent from others taking part in any activities that involve more than one person, and you've obtained the services or products you want to use honestly without force or coersion. Freedom means I can wake up in the morning after an all night orgy with my 5 wives and 5 husbands, use some heroin, go to a casino to gamble, come home and home school my kids, visit a prostitute and her sheep, have an abortion, and ride my motorcycle without a helmet into the brick wall of my adult bookstore I've built next to an elementary school. It also means I can do less offensive things such as raise my children with my own values at home without testing from the government. It means I can grow my own food or medicine. It means I am responsible for any harm I do to others or thier property. It means I'm responsible for my own healthcare, retirement, education, and charity. It means that when I make stupid decisions, I must live with the consequences of those decisions. It means I'm not entitled to steal from my neighbor to pay for my percieved needs. You can not separate freedom and responsibility. They are one in the same. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

03-10-2004, 02:13 PM	#26
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Most of those things in your tongue-in-cheek description of freedom do cause harm to others or their property. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

03-10-2004, 04:51 PM	#27
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	None of those things cause physical harm to any non-consenting others or their property; not one. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

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