Watching the Democrats - it's Fun and Macabre!

[Adak]

[quote=SamIam;841615]I don't mean to turn this thread into an expose' of environmental crimes now being committed in the American West, and I'll try not to turn my reply into something nobody else but tw can understand. But your statements are so completely wrong that I can't let them go unchallenged. I live here and it's happening to the mountains and back country plateaus that I love. It breaks my heart and I have VERY strong feelings about it.

You obviously know nothing about current oil shale and natural gas extraction methods in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming. Fracking is used to extract natural gas, not oil shale. [quote]


Stop! I live in the American Southwest, and fracking also allows access to oil that is in shale - it's not just natural gas (although there is a lot of that gas, as well, and natural gas burns VERY clean).

Your "burning water" was investigated (that was in Pennsylvania, btw), and found to be a contamination by above ground mishandling and contamination -- had NOTHING to do with fracking. You can't contaminate with fracking because they're working FAR deeper than ground water, UNLESS your well casings and pipes BOTH crack and leak, AND are passing through an area with groundwater.

The gov't has checked this out, (they wanted to stop it), and found that they could not, because there was NO evidence it contaminated ANYTHING. I will add that there is of course, SOME risk in doing ANYTHING - in the environment, or just crossing the street.

Fracking often leads to the pollution of ground water with methane. As a result of this contamination, some communities in my part of the world - Colorado's Western Slope - have tap water that can actually be set on fire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEQMA0zwMM4

Yes, this was checked out - above ground contamination, by poor handling of wastes. Had nothing to do with fracking.

Out here, burning water is like burning $100 dollar bills. Water is a precious commodity in this land of little rain. It's bad enough that the energy companies come in and contaminate our water supplies, but the crime is compounded when outfits like Halliburten and Shell steal our water completely. Farmers and ranchers are being driven out of business because they can no longer afford the high costs of water rights - a price skyrocketing thanks to drought and energy exploitation methods.

That's just a few of the evils of fracking natural gas.

So now companies are to blame because costs are rising in the marketplace, for a scarce supply of water?

I cringe at your lack of understanding of supply and demand. Do you believe these companies can help that? They would LOVE to pay low prices for the water they need.

There is nothing responsible or sustainable about oil shale either. The process of extracting oil shale is similar to tar sands. The land is strip mined, then the oil is baked out of the rock by heating it to high temperatures. This is a process that destroys the land, uses massive amounts of water, and uses massive amounts of energy.

Shale mining IS strip mining, AFAIK, but I'm not very knowledgeable about shale mining. It's completely wrong to group Fracking, with Shale Mining. The former is like drilling a well. The latter is like tearing the shit out of everything on the surface, and working with the shale, below it, directly, with huge mining equipment.

You'll be pleased to hear that this is one area where the Obama administration is in bed with the big oil and energy corporations. Obama's decision to allow big energy to pillage our public lands is worthy of Republicans like James Watt and Dick Cheney.

Actually, Obama has blocked a lot of oil projects, on Federal lands.

While I supported Obama in the election, he was merely the lesser of two evils. I and other Western environmentalists are fighting a losing battle to keep our backyards from becoming slag pits.

The first two pix that follow are of my beloved Uncomphaghre Plateau - two hours drive to the north of me. It's spectacular and one of Colorado's best kept secrets. Few tourists venture up there and I usually have the entire Uncomphaghre to myself when I go there - or so it feels. The Uncomphaghre is also a rich source of oil shale and falls under the Bureau of Land mis-Management (BLM). Obama is turning BLM lands into national sacrifice areas in the quest for so-called alternative energy sources.

What's so "alternative" about strip mining for oil, from shale? I don't get the "alternative" description here. Looks like same-ol' stuff to me.

Pix three and four are of shale debris and a shale strip mine, respectively. Obama wants to delete pix one and two and replace them with pix three and four.

Y'all can go back to the budget thing now. I think I'll go outside and look at the mountains for a while.

Oh there's no doubt that strip mining is about the only thing worse than clear cutting a huge forest - it destroys everything. What's the plan to restore the area's being mined, when they're done working with the shale? That's what I'd like to see. I don't believe you can stop strip mining, in area's rich in deposits. You CAN and SHOULD insist that the area be returned to something akin to it's former state though, when they are done.

We do need the energy - that's critical, but we don't need to strip mine and then leave the area a slag dump.

Yes, it will not be the same for a hundred years, but it should be enjoyable, and be slowly returned to it's former beauty, as large trees grow in, etc. That will only happen if it gets worked into shape with the slag put back below the level of supporting top and secondary soil. If the slag stays at or very close to the surface, then nothing good will ever grow there. All plants depend on the micro organisms and micro nutrients in soil - and that is not present in slag.

All Good Medicine.

[Lamplighter]

Oh there's no doubt that strip mining is about the only thing worse than clear cutting a huge forest - it destroys everything. What's the plan to restore the area's being mined, when they're done working with the shale? That's what I'd like to see. I don't believe you can stop strip mining, in area's rich in deposits. You CAN and SHOULD insist that the area be returned to something akin to it's former state though, when they are done.

We do need the energy - that's critical, but we don't need to strip mine and then leave the area a slag dump.

Who is YOU, and doesn't that involve "regulation"

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Who is YOU, and doesn't that involve "regulation"

I meant that there are regulations - we regulate everything nowadays, but those who are there - locally - are the only ones who know if the regulations, are actually being followed.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Adak

Stop! I live in the American Southwest, and fracking also allows access to oil that is in shale - it's not just natural gas (although there is a lot of that gas, as well, and natural gas burns VERY clean).

Your "burning water" was investigated (that was in Pennsylvania, btw), and found to be a contamination by above ground mishandling and contamination -- had NOTHING to do with fracking. You can't contaminate with fracking because they're working FAR deeper than ground water, UNLESS your well casings and pipes BOTH crack and leak, AND are passing through an area with groundwater.

The gov't has checked this out, (they wanted to stop it), and found that they could not, because there was NO evidence it contaminated ANYTHING. I will add that there is of course, SOME risk in doing ANYTHING - in the environment, or just crossing the street.

Yup. I agree with all three points.

Apparently, the makers of "Gasland" actually knew the entire 'setting tap water on fire from fracking' thing was bullshit but they decided to go through with it anyways.

Originally Posted by BigV

OF COURSE the answer should be the Environmental Protection Agency, or the Department of Energy, or some combination of both. To rely on "self regulation" will never work, and would indeed be illegal.

Also agree.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Adak

Stop! I live in the American Southwest

It is a pleasure to have another person from my part of the world on the board. I would be curious to know which Southwestern state if you'd feel comfortable sharing that information with us.

I'm going to preface the rest of my remarks with the following:

I did not intend for my little joke about oil shale (it's better to laugh than to cry) to become a springboard for a discussion which must encompass the fields of geology, climatology, plant physiology, mining and Western history to name only a few.

I once worked at a college library that had a 500,000 volume collection on these very subjects. And even at that, I managed to read only 499,999 of them.

Never mind the length a proper reply would entail, I don't feel the Cellar -as great as it is and as intelligent as its members are - is the appropriate forum for what would constitute a highly technical and scientific discussion. Therefore, I am only to make a few remarks in response to your post. OK, a COUPLE of few.

Originally Posted by Adak

fracking also allows access to oil that is in shale - it's not just natural gas (although there is a lot of that gas, as well, and natural gas burns VERY clean).

A number of methods are used to extract oil shale - a sort of fracking is one of them, true. However, what most people know about fracking is in relation to natural gas extraction. There are significant differences between "fracking" oil shale versus fracking natural gas. In addition, given our current technology, strip mining and extraction of petroleum via a high temperature process remains the preferred technique. This is called "retorting." You are correct in stating that natural gas is a clean fuel to burn. However, it is not always a clean fuel to extract.

Originally Posted by Adak

Your "burning water" was investigated (that was in Pennsylvania, btw), and found to be a contamination by above ground mishandling and contamination -- had NOTHING to do with fracking. You can't contaminate with fracking because they're working FAR deeper than ground water, UNLESS your well casings and pipes BOTH crack and leak, AND are passing through an area with groundwater.

PA shares the dubious honor along with Colorado and a number of other states of having regions where the inhabitants can perform the burning water trick. Youtube has endless videos of people from all over the US burning their tap water.

Whatever source you found that states fracking has nothing to do with methane in the near-by area water supply is either out-of-date, or dismissive of science in the manner of many right wing outfits, or both.

In April of 2011, the peer reviewed publication of the American Academy of Science included a research paper describing “a clear correlation between drilling activity and the seepage of gas contaminants underground, a danger in itself and evidence that pathways do exist for contaminants to migrate deep within the earth.”

Even the scientists who conducted the research were surprised at the strength of correlation.

Originally Posted by Adak

The gov't has checked this out, (they wanted to stop it), and found that they could not, because there was NO evidence it contaminated ANYTHING.

As Tonto would say,"They who, white boy?" From the Bush administration to the present, the Federal government, far from attempting to prohibit fracking, has gone out of its way to encourage it.

By contrast, research conducted at the behest of state and local governments has shown definate evidence of contamination and a host of other problems that result from fracking. See for example, the report issued by Garfield County containing an exhaustive examination of the methane problem on Colorado's Western Slope:

"It challenges the view that natural gas, and the suite of hydrocarbons that exist around it, is isolated from water supplies by its extreme depth," said Judith Jordan, the oil and gas liaison for Garfield County who has worked as a hydrogeologist with DuPont and as a lawyer with Pennsylvania's Department of Environmental Protection. "It is highly unlikely that methane would have migrated through natural faults and fractures and coincidentally arrived in domestic wells at the same time oil and gas development started, after having been down there ...for over 65 million years."

*pause to go out and breathe a little clean night air while I still can*

Originally Posted by Adak

I will add that there is of course, SOME risk in doing ANYTHING - in the environment, or just crossing the street.

I agree, but I might also add that a wise pedestrian looks both ways and makes sure the street is clear of traffic. Only a fool steps out in front of a speeding truck. We, as a society, have hopped right in front of an oncoming environmental freight train.

Originally Posted by Adak

So now companies are to blame because costs are rising in the marketplace, for a scarce supply of water?

I cringe at your lack of understanding of supply and demand. Do you believe these companies can help that? They would LOVE to pay low prices for the water they need.

Oh, come on. Ignoring common sense is not the way to win a debate. One hundred people demand a commodity in scarce supply offered by the market place. Suddenly, ten huge corporations step in and up the bidding. The corporations would love to pay less, but they determine that procurring the commodity even at a high price will help result in a fantastic profit. They up the bidding, secure the commodity for themselves and make a killing. Yes, the companies have helped up the price of water. Don't tell me you're a Republican who can't figure out the free market.

Originally Posted by Adak

You CAN and SHOULD insist that the area be returned to something akin to it's former state though, when they are done.

Sure, and I also could insist that I be given the ability to turn straw into gold for all the good that would do for me.

I honestly appreciate your final comments here, Adak - I really do. You seem to have done a little reading and you don't come across as wanting an environmental wasteland any more than I do.

However - and here about 49,000 volumes from that library above beg to be read. It is not that easy. Let's say the mining companies actually agreed to pay the astronomical cost that restoring even just one strip mined mountain would entail. Never mind that in the entire history of mining in the American West, no mineral extraction outfit has ever paid anything near the cost of the damage to the environment it has incurred. Never mind any of the past terrible mining related damage that even a casual observer will notice in amost any river drainage around here. Let's write costs off completely and give every single energy company CEO a PhD in ecology and an attitude of deep contrition for the havoc he has helped wreck on the land. Let's make all those highly unlikely things be true.

Colorado and the rest of the Inter mountain West will still never recover from what will amount to decade after decade of strip mining and other types of energy exploitation.

Remember those beautiful aspen in my first pic a way back? Well, those trees along with the spruce and the pinyon and the Doug fir and all the others are already dead. They just don't know it yet.

Notice how dry it's been out here? And it's been dry for quite a while now, come to think of it. And hasn't this been one of the warmest summers and falls ever? Sure has in MY part of the Southwest, anyhow.

Forests in the Inter Mountain West are already suffering from an ecological three strikes and out - climate change, fire suppression carried out like a slap in the face to all known forestry and ecological science, and an incredible outbreak - epidemic, really - of pine beetle and other destructive insects.

Even the pinyon trees are dying and the pinyon has got to be one of the toughest, hardiest tree species out here. I never thought I'd see acre after acre of dead pinyon pines. But all I have to do is drive about 40 or 50 miles north of here and take a look around the aptly named Disappointment Valley and there they are.

Or were.

The first time I realized that even the pinyons were dying, I felt frightened. I still do.

We should be doing everything we can to protect and nurture our Inter-Mountain Western forests - as well as soils. We might possibly be able to preserve this precious national heritage, although the odds are increasingly against it.

Strip mining will be the final blow. The forest will never return.

Now, if you are like many of the other Republicans I've encountered, you probably don't "believe" in climate change or global warming. Or maybe you do. Whatever. I don't argue the subject with scientific atheists anymore. There's a zillion post thread about global warming around here somewhere. Read it if you want. Or look out your window at the dead pinyons.

I've typed you just about the longest response to a post that I can ever remember giving someone here. If you don't agree with my reasoning and don't bother to study any of the reputable links written for the scientific lay person that I've provided, that's your choice. I've already given you an ample response and I'm finished.

I wish like anything that your replies to my earlier post were correct. Unfortunately, they're not.

Have a nice evening or a pleasant morning.