Israel has opened the gates of Hell

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Because the fucking world is not black and white.

I know it isn't. Hamas calls for genocide. I thought most of us were opposed to ethnic cleansing. If your next door neighbor tells you he is going to kill your family and then shoots at your house, would you just sit back? Even if other neighbors said it was none of their business, would you say "Oh, well"?

Perhaps another perspective would be: If you heard the KKK say they were going to kill all of the African - Americans, would you let them? Would you sit back if a group of white males were throwing stones at a black male, would you tell the B/M that he shouldn't defend himself?

I don't understand why you would endorse a group whose mission is to destroy others based upon religion or race.

[glatt]

Has anyone here endorsed Hamas?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

I know it isn't. Hamas calls for genocide. I thought most of us were opposed to ethnic cleansing. If your next door neighbor tells you he is going to kill your family and then shoots at your house, would you just sit back? Even if other neighbors said it was none of their business, would you say "Oh, well"?

Many accuse Israel of doing the exact same thing...

The point is that extremists exist in both Hamas and Israel that actually do want to wipe out the other side. However, these people are not the majority (it seems) and the views of these larger organizations (Hamas and Israel) can not be lumped in with those extremist views.

This is a situation where side A "reacts" violently to an action by side B. This "reaction" causes extremists in side B to gain power and then they will "react" to the initial "reaction", attacking side A. This reinforces the power of the extremists on side A, creating a self-perpetuating downward spiral. As long as this back and forth keeps going, neither side is willing or able to compromise. That is why this situation is extremely difficult to solve.

[Lamplighter]

Usually, we hear only from the top dogs in government, or talking heads,
when it comes to the war/peace negotiations between factions.
Or we see only the pics and videos of the military (drone) strikes.

But the video linked below is unusual in that the main speaker is a man
who actually drafted a peace accord between Israel and Hamas.
The headline is inflammatory, but the discussion is quite reasonable.

I found it quite fascinating and informative of the status of
Hamas and Iraeli negotiations just before the fighting broke out again...

[The discussion starts at the 20 min mark, and is only about 10 min long]

Democracy Now
Amy Goodman
11/16/12

Israeli Negotiator: Hamas Commander Was Assassinated Hours After Receiving Truce Deal from Israel
Israel broke an informal ceasefire on Wednesday by assassinating
Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari in an air strike.
The Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate talks between
Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit,
has revealed Jabari was assassinated just hours after he received
the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel,
which included mechanisms for maintaining the ceasefire.
<snip>

[xoxoxoBruce]

Keep your strawman, it's not even close.
This is far from one sided, the shit Israel has done to the Pals that brought Hamas to power was appalling, as is the shit they've done since. Not only the official government actions, but the attitude and actions of individual Israeli citizens against the Pals. So the Pals, getting beat up, turn to Hamas for protection and revenge. Is that a surprise?

You see the newsreels of Arabs/Persians/Palestinians throwing rocks and shouting death to the Jews. Yeah, they're real and they mean it, but how many are there? What about the majority of Pals that want Israel to stop taking their land, cutting down orchards and olive groves their families have tended for hundreds of years. Wanting to take their kids to school or the doctors without having to go through several checkpoints where they may or may not pass on the whim of some Israeli private.

This is far from one sided, so don't quote this or that ideology and assign it to people you know nothing about. As much as you'd like to boil the whole problem down to a few sentences, you'd just be fooling yourself... or playing to your preconceived prejudices.

Mother Jones take on it.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Hamas calls for genocide. I thought most of us were opposed to ethnic cleansing.

then what do you call what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, especially in Gaza? what do you call what Israel does with African refugees and immigrants? what do you call literally threatening Gaza with a holocaust?

As much as I abhor terrorism, sometimes there are few options for the oppressed beyond violence. Gaza is prettymuch starving. Gaza has little medicine at the best of times, and less when israel refuses to let them. The blockade and containment tactics Israel is using to oust a legally elected neighboring government is destroying the people of Gaza, already poor, overcrowded, and ill before having their children, siblings, parents, loved ones blown apart by Israeli airstrikes.

If this were a court of law, and israel and gaza individuals, israel would go to jail for assault or attempted murder. Gaza tossed pebbles; Israel drew a blackjack and a pistol and went at Gaza with everything they got. COMPLETELY disproportionate use of force.

Israel has no moral high ground here.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Ibby

then what do you call what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, especially in Gaza? what do you call what Israel does with African refugees and immigrants? what do you call literally threatening Gaza with a holocaust?

An extremist that does not represent Israel as an entirety....

As much as I abhor terrorism, sometimes there are few options for the oppressed beyond violence.

It is not that one-sided either. There are more effective means than terrorism.

[Spexxvet]

Why isn't the Arab League helping the Israelis? I endorse their containment - they shouldn't let in people who want to annihilate them

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

An extremist that does not represent Israel as an entirety...

he may not represent all israelis, but he represents the government to some extent, seeing as how he's the deputy defense minister...

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

I know it isn't. Hamas calls for genocide. <snip>
I don't understand why you would endorse a group whose mission is to destroy others based upon religion or race.

Sarge, I think you need to take a fresh look at your views.
Maybe things are not exactly the way you are posting.

Again from Wikipedia:

In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and former US President Jimmy Carter,
an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state
in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified
by the Palestinian people in a referendum.

Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed
to return to its 1967 borders and grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees.[58]

In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas
was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders,
and offered Israel a long-term truce
"if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights."[59]

In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group's support
for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: "We would never thwart efforts
to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967,
with Jerusalem as its capital."[60]

On 1 December 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated that,
"We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital,
the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees", and that
"Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of
whether it differs with its ideology and principles".[61]

In February 2012, according to the Palestinian authority, Hamas forswore the use of violence.
Evidence for this was provided by an eruption of violence from Islamic Jihad
in March 2012 after an Israeli assassination of a Jihad leader,
during which Hamas refrained from attacking Israel.[62]

"Israel
—despite its mantra that because Hamas is sovereign in Gaza it is responsible for what goes on there —almost seems to understand,"
wrote Israeli journalists Avi Issacharoff and Amos Harel,
"and has not bombed Hamas offices or installations."[63]

Ummm... that last paragraph needs to be updated with "...until November, 2012"

I'm not saying Hamas is as white as snow, either.
It's just not as sharply defined as you seem to present.

[Spexxvet]

interesting read

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/middle-ea...n-middle-east/