Juvenile Death Penalty

[mrnoodle]

Originally posted by plthijinx
mrnoodle cool. i understand your point. not to knock you but do you have children yourself? if so then that validates your point even more so, if not then, well, call me when you do. i'm not trying to piss you off, really. you say that a child under a certain age is the responsibility of their parents. the columbine idiots were of the reasonable age to be eligable (IMHO) for the death penalty. shit dude, i'd hang them myself if they hadn't of gone out the "cheap way"

No offense taken, but even though I'm not the biological cause of any kids, my opinion is shared by my own parents, my sister (who has 2) and my brother (who has 1), as well as more than one friend and passing acquaintance who have kids.

"Until you have kids, you just don't understand" is valid for some arguments, but not this one. If your kid gets to the point that he or she is able to commit a capital crime, and you were totally clueless about it, you haven't spent enough time with your kids. Hell, if someone's dog kills someone, they face criminal charges, and you want me to believe that your own child's actions are less your responsibility? I just don't buy it.

[Shattered Soul]

For those of you who believe that juveniles can be rehabilitated, I ask the following question:

At what age is it do you believe that rehabilitation is not likely to do much good? Does the liklihood of rehabilitation decrease with age? It would make sense to me that a five-year-old would be more likely to be "rehabilitated" than a 12-year-old...

A five-year-old may know that hitting is wrong, and hurts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows that if he hits his infant sibling on the head with a cast-iron skillet that it will KILL them. An eight-year-old probably knows that it will hurt them, but may not understand the concept of death (although I may be stretching it here. Most eight-year-olds know about death), a nine-or-ten-year-old KNOWS better.

The older the kid gets, the more aware they are of the consequences of their actions. Therefore, why shouldn't they be held responsible? How much awareness is required? At what age do we say that rehabilitation will be less effective than punishment?


rehabilitation

n 1: the restoration of someone to a useful place in society 2. To restore to good health or useful life, as through therapy and education.

(in other words, to be reasonably sure they won't commit said crime again)

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by mrnoodle

If your kid gets to the point that he or she is able to commit a capital crime, and you were totally clueless about it, you haven't spent enough time with your kids. Hell, if someone's dog kills someone, they face criminal charges, and you want me to believe that your own child's actions are less your responsibility? I just don't buy it.

I see where you're coming from mrnoodle, and it does make sense. However, I know that I, as a kid, used to sneak out at night, and my family was never the wiser about it. I could've been out torching houses (I wasn't) for all they knew, but my sneaking out had nothing to do with how they raised me. It was just something kids do. There were a lot of things in my life that my family knew nothing of (not necessarily bad, just things they didn't know). If I'd gotten in trouble, I don't think that they should've been held responsible.

Parents can't stay awake 24/7, after all. If your kid's sneaking out at night and raping people, how are you supposed to know unless you're watching him as he sleeps? What about these straight-A students who end up being discoverd to be murderers or rapists? Do you think their parents had any idea that their kid, who was doing so well in school, and seemed to be well-adjusted, with lots of friends, had a double life?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that a child's behavior is not ALWAYS the result of a parent's not being involved. And then again, sometimes the parents themselves are outright criminals....

Working in a mental hospital, I saw plenty of kids whose parents just couldn't control them, no matter what they did. Our ward was the last stop before jail for kids who'd been deemed "incorrigible" by the courts.

Sometimes kids are just bad.

[Shattered Soul]

You have a point there, LS...I used to sneak out, too, and my parents probably would've taken me out to the woodshed if they'd found out. I never did much, it was just the thrill of sneaking out and getting away with it.

But you're right. Parents can't watch their kids 24/7, and sometimes even the most concerned parents find things out about their kids that they never would've imagined, much less tolerated, only after the kid gets busted.

You can only do so much as a parent. Parents shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of their children when they've done the best they can to teach them right from wrong. You can't make your kid do right. You can only show him the way.

[mrnoodle]

Yah, I guess you do have to be a parent. But the stuff that these kids do is so horrible, it seems like someone would HAVE to know something. I don't know.

[Shattered Soul]

Yeah, usually the friends they hang out with. But do you really think the friends are going to rat to the parents?

I'm not saying that ALL the little delinquents out there are self-made--don't get me wrong--but as a former child myself, I know that kids are sometimes pretty good at hiding things from their parents. It's not that the parents aren't concerned or involved, mind you...sometimes they don't know the right questions to ask, or they don't ask the right people, or their kids seem so well-adjusted that they don't feel the need to snoop. But look up "Asocial Personality Disorder," and you'll see that these types are very good at manipulating people and putting forth a face that makes people trust them. Some of these kids may be sociopathic. Some may have fallen under the influence of the wrong people, and yeah, some may have crappy parents.

But let's just say that little Joe Blow has a criminal dad, who actively encourages his kid to be a crook. The kid gets caught. The kid should be punished because he made the choice to do something he knew was wrong, and the dad should be punished for, at the very least, contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

On the other hand, if a 16 or 17-year-old goes out and gets his 15-year-old girlfriend pregnant, do you think the parents should be held responsible for his (at the very least) child-support? Nah.

[plthijinx]

Originally posted by mrnoodle

No offense taken, but even though I'm not the biological cause of any kids, my opinion is shared by my own parents, my sister (who has 2) and my brother (who has 1), as well as more than one friend and passing acquaintance who have kids.

"Until you have kids, you just don't understand" is valid for some arguments, but not this one. If your kid gets to the point that he or she is able to commit a capital crime, and you were totally clueless about it, you haven't spent enough time with your kids. Hell, if someone's dog kills someone, they face criminal charges, and you want me to believe that your own child's actions are less your responsibility? I just don't buy it.

ok. your new here. you make a very god point. however, i adopted my son. a few of the cellarites are aware of this. the dog issue should be another thread. kids are different from dogs. let's face it, if you commit the crime then be prepared to face your fate. you mention your family and that you don't directly have siblings. ok, fine, that's cool with me but until you have someone that YOU are responsible for then you can't understand where i'm coming from. again, i'm not trying to irritate you, i, until 2 and 1/2 years ago thought the EXACT same way you do. bottom line to me is, if you do the crime; be prepared to do the time.

[plthijinx]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
For those of you who believe that juveniles can be rehabilitated, I ask the following question:

The older the kid gets, the more aware they are of the consequences of their actions. Therefore, why shouldn't they be held responsible? How much awareness is required? At what age do we say that rehabilitation will be less effective than punishment?

rehabilitation

n 1: the restoration of someone to a useful place in society 2. To restore to good health or useful life, as through therapy and education.

(in other words, to be reasonably sure they won't commit said crime again)

totally agree here. it's all about raising kids right and disciplining them when they screw up. education is the key. i'm not a smart person but i know right from wrong. it's called morals and i have them.

[Shattered Soul]

I have no idea why discipline is considered "abuse" nowadays, to tell you the truth. I mean, how many of you really think that paddling a kid's bottom is going to screw them up for life...? And I don't mean, beating the living shit out of a kid....I mean showing them that the parent is boss, not the child...showing them what is acceptable, what will be tolerated, and what won't.

Some kids, a word is all it takes. Others push their limits. Why should parents be forced to let the kids take over? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of raising your kids right?

(maybe this should be in the parenthood thread...lol)

[plthijinx]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
I have no idea why discipline is considered "abuse" nowadays, to tell you the truth. I mean, how many of you really think that paddling a kid's bottom is going to screw them up for life...? And I don't mean, beating the living shit out of a kid....I mean showing them that the parent is boss, not the child...showing them what is acceptable, what will be tolerated, and what won't.

Some kids, a word is all it takes. Others push their limits. Why should parents be forced to let the kids take over? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of raising your kids right?

(maybe this should be in the parenthood thread...lol)

it's the utopians.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter

Also, someone mentioned that these kids shouldn't pay the price for poor parenting. Well, even the poorest parent instills in a child the idea of right and wrong.

Let's hope so.

Originally posted by Troubleshooter

These chldren know that what they are doing is against the law, and thusly wrong. Not suffering any consequences for you behavior at home cannot completely excuse you from the consequences of your actions.

Knowing what you're doing is wrong doesn't necessarily prevent you from doing it though, DOES it? And children do learn their behaviors from their parents. If they see their parents engaging in unacceptable behavior, "do as I say, not as I do" doesn't work. If the parents don't model good behavior, it doesn't matter what they tell their kids. The kids internalize what they perceive to be the parent's value system, and it influences their actions later on. That's something everyone should think about and remember.


Having said that, I still believe that capital crimes should, if proven, be eligible for capital punishment, regardless of age.

Sidhe