Israel has opened the gates of Hell

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

...And how will they define victory? It's like when they went into Lebanon a couple years ago and did not remove Hezbollah from power, so even though they won every battle, Hezbollah was considered the winner since they weren't completely defeated...

Also to be considered is the role of the western media in turning American military victories into propaganda victories for the Communists, in enabling them to "win" the war, which war itself was tragic for both sides.

Underlying the importance of such is the often quoted exchange between Colonel Harry G. Summers, Jr. and his North Vietnamese counterpart, Colonel Tu. During one of his liaison trips to Hanoi, Colonel Harry told Tu, "You know, you never beat us on the battlefield," Colonel Tu responded, "That may be so, but it is also irrelevant."

Spin, spin, spin, victory is in the mind of the beholder.

[Trilby]

I'm wondering the same thing, glatt.

Seems very strange timing.

I liked The Daily Show's idea of just giving Florida to the Jews. It makes perfect sense.

[Rhianne]

I believe there is an election coming up soon in Israel.

Edit: 22nd January

[Big Sarge]

Am I the only one for crushing Hamas and driving tem into the sea?? Note, I am referencing Hamas and not the Palestinian civilians

[Lamplighter]

Am I the only one for crushing Hamas and driving them into the sea??
Note, I am referencing Hamas and not the Palestinian civilians

Sarge, my first reaction to your question was "I hope so"

If Israel were white as the driven snow in their relationships with their neighbors, your idea might have value.
But since the days of Jimmy Carter's presidency, it's not been anything less than an ultraconservative, militaristic tyrannt.

The US has routinely pledged (ultimate) support for Israel, so
their real danger is much less than their politics can warrant.

The damages inflicted on Israel are minuscule, both in numbers of military, or civilians killed or wounded
and in physical damage to structures, etc. compared with what Israel has done to it's neighbors.

Maybe military types get their jollies out of this, but I don't.
This latest escalation was driven by Israli's actions shown here...

The Israel Defense Forces didn’t just kill Hamas military leader Ahmed al-Jabari
on Wednesday as he was driving his car down the street in Gaza.
They killed him and then instantly posted the strike to YouTube.
Then they tweeted a warning to all of Jabari’s comrades:
“We recommend that no Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders,
show their faces above ground in the days ahead.”

I know this is not a popular position in the US, so...

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Am I the only one for crushing Hamas and driving tem into the sea?? Note, I am referencing Hamas and not the Palestinian civilians

The problem is that there is no way of separating Hamas from the Palestinian civilians. Hamas isn't just a military organization, it is a well-rounded political organization that has a strong military wing. That makes it difficult to separate the military aspect of Hamas with the the political aspects, schools, hospititals, police force, etc., which are positive.

I just don't get it. How can anyone favor Hamas, an Iranian tied terrorist group whose core tenets are based upon genocide?

My problem is with extremists on both sides (Israel and Palestine). As long as those assholes are in control, it will only lead to more and more deaths and a smaller chance of peace. The fact that Abbas has no control over the situation speaks for itself.

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Am I the only one for crushing Hamas and driving tem into the sea?? Note, I am referencing Hamas and not the Palestinian civilians

How are you going to do that without harming the civilians? Or how will you make them understand the ones who died are Necessary Losses?

[glatt]

It's kind of like a foreign country trying to kill all the Republicans in the US.

[Big Sarge]

I just don't get it. How can anyone favor Hamas, an Iranian tied terrorist group whose core tenets are based upon genocide?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Because the fucking world is not black and white.

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Because the fucking world is not black and white.

I know it isn't. Hamas calls for genocide. I thought most of us were opposed to ethnic cleansing. If your next door neighbor tells you he is going to kill your family and then shoots at your house, would you just sit back? Even if other neighbors said it was none of their business, would you say "Oh, well"?

Perhaps another perspective would be: If you heard the KKK say they were going to kill all of the African - Americans, would you let them? Would you sit back if a group of white males were throwing stones at a black male, would you tell the B/M that he shouldn't defend himself?

I don't understand why you would endorse a group whose mission is to destroy others based upon religion or race.

[glatt]

Has anyone here endorsed Hamas?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

I know it isn't. Hamas calls for genocide. I thought most of us were opposed to ethnic cleansing. If your next door neighbor tells you he is going to kill your family and then shoots at your house, would you just sit back? Even if other neighbors said it was none of their business, would you say "Oh, well"?

Many accuse Israel of doing the exact same thing...

The point is that extremists exist in both Hamas and Israel that actually do want to wipe out the other side. However, these people are not the majority (it seems) and the views of these larger organizations (Hamas and Israel) can not be lumped in with those extremist views.

This is a situation where side A "reacts" violently to an action by side B. This "reaction" causes extremists in side B to gain power and then they will "react" to the initial "reaction", attacking side A. This reinforces the power of the extremists on side A, creating a self-perpetuating downward spiral. As long as this back and forth keeps going, neither side is willing or able to compromise. That is why this situation is extremely difficult to solve.

[Lamplighter]

Usually, we hear only from the top dogs in government, or talking heads,
when it comes to the war/peace negotiations between factions.
Or we see only the pics and videos of the military (drone) strikes.

But the video linked below is unusual in that the main speaker is a man
who actually drafted a peace accord between Israel and Hamas.
The headline is inflammatory, but the discussion is quite reasonable.

I found it quite fascinating and informative of the status of
Hamas and Iraeli negotiations just before the fighting broke out again...

[The discussion starts at the 20 min mark, and is only about 10 min long]

Democracy Now
Amy Goodman
11/16/12

Israeli Negotiator: Hamas Commander Was Assassinated Hours After Receiving Truce Deal from Israel
Israel broke an informal ceasefire on Wednesday by assassinating
Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari in an air strike.
The Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate talks between
Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit,
has revealed Jabari was assassinated just hours after he received
the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel,
which included mechanisms for maintaining the ceasefire.
<snip>

[xoxoxoBruce]

Keep your strawman, it's not even close.
This is far from one sided, the shit Israel has done to the Pals that brought Hamas to power was appalling, as is the shit they've done since. Not only the official government actions, but the attitude and actions of individual Israeli citizens against the Pals. So the Pals, getting beat up, turn to Hamas for protection and revenge. Is that a surprise?

You see the newsreels of Arabs/Persians/Palestinians throwing rocks and shouting death to the Jews. Yeah, they're real and they mean it, but how many are there? What about the majority of Pals that want Israel to stop taking their land, cutting down orchards and olive groves their families have tended for hundreds of years. Wanting to take their kids to school or the doctors without having to go through several checkpoints where they may or may not pass on the whim of some Israeli private.

This is far from one sided, so don't quote this or that ideology and assign it to people you know nothing about. As much as you'd like to boil the whole problem down to a few sentences, you'd just be fooling yourself... or playing to your preconceived prejudices.

Mother Jones take on it.