The Real Mitt Romney

[Adak]

Paul Ryan is arguing that Joe Biden and the administration, have supported abortions so much, that the Catholic church is having to sue the gov't. That support for abortions is both here, and abroad, including the forced abortions on a massive scale in China.

Ryan further points to Biden's statement of this, when he visited China.

Joe Biden replies:
"I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life and it's the core of my being."

Sure it is, Joe: To Catholics, abortion is a heinous (mortal) sin. Just in case you maybe forgot.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Has Biden had an abortion? I don't think so. Anyone that tries to push their personal view, whether from their religion or not, on other people, has no business in the government.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Has Biden had an abortion? I don't think so. Anyone that tries to push their personal view, whether from their religion or not, on other people, has no business in the government.

That's what Obama does in his health care law. That why the Catholic and a few other churches, are suing the feds for forcing them to accept paying for abortions AND for performing abortions, in their hospitals.

Personally, I believe abortions should be 1st trimester only, and the decision is ultimately up to the woman in consultation with her doctor, and the father, if possible.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

That's what Obama does in his health care law. That why the Catholic and a few other churches, are suing the feds for forcing them to accept paying for abortions AND for performing abortions, in their hospitals.

No, it's not Obama's personal view it's the law, written and passed by congress. Sure he pushed it, but if he'd written it according to his personal view you'd be apoplectic.

Forcing them to pay for contraception like a responsible employer isn't forcing anyone to use them. I guess the Catholic church wants to try to at least keep the poor that can't afford them under control. The numbers seem to show that a great many Catholic women that can afford the pill choose to do so.

Can you site a source on this, "for performing abortions, in their hospitals"?

[Adak]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, it's not Obama's personal view it's the law, written and passed by congress. Sure he pushed it, but if he'd written it according to his personal view you'd be apoplectic.

Forcing them to pay for contraception like a responsible employer isn't forcing anyone to use them. I guess the Catholic church wants to try to at least keep the poor that can't afford them under control. The numbers seem to show that a great many Catholic women that can afford the pill choose to do so.

Can you site a source on this, "for performing abortions, in their hospitals"?

No, I don't have a copy of the 2,000 + page bill. As the suit moves forward, we can get more info from the filed court papers. From what I hear, they are objecting to two things:

1) That they have to pay for what they believe is a sin.

and

2) That their hospitals would have to provide abortion procedures. The doctor and nurses could be non-Catholic, but enabling that procedure is sinful to them, based on their religious beliefs.

The health care bill insists on this because, in some areas, religious hospitals are the only local hospitals.

This is just what I'm hearing on Conservative radio. The talk show host was an attorney and a legal adviser to Ronald Reagan's administration, and Chief of Staff for the Attorney General, Edwin Meese. (Mark Levin)

According to Mark, the Catholic Church is bringing all legal guns to bear on this fight.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Can you site a source on this, "for performing abortions, in their hospitals"?

Originally Posted by Adak

No

My understanding is that the Catholic owned hospitals consider prescribing and/or paying for so called "abortion pills" to be the same as providing an abortion. I don't equate providing a medication to be the same as "performing abortions, in their hospitals."

[Adak]

Originally Posted by glatt

My understanding is that the Catholic owned hospitals consider prescribing and/or paying for so called "abortion pills" to be the same as providing an abortion. I don't equate providing a medication to be the same as "performing abortions, in their hospitals."

Correct. Enabling a sin, makes you a part of it's commission, to the Church, and the same logic is used in law. Enabling a crime, makes you a part of it's commission, usually as an accessory.

Oh, I SO believe the Church lawyers will RIP the feds lawyers to shreds on this case.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

My understanding is that the Catholic owned hospitals consider prescribing and/or paying for so called "abortion pills" to be the same as providing an abortion. I don't equate providing a medication to be the same as "performing abortions, in their hospitals."

Could be, because when I ask Google it comes up with both the contraception for employees and having to perform abortions in their hospitals, in the description of the links, but none of the 20 odd links I checked had anything about having to perform abortions.

So it would appear that Adak is just repeating wild claims from right wing talk radio that have no basis.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

Sure it is, Joe: To Catholics, abortion is a heinous (mortal) sin. Just in case you maybe forgot.

America was founded on principles that religion is only between you and your god. Any church that enforces a Spanish Inquistion to enforce their beliefs would be Satanic.

Pope ordered Church doctrine be imposed in law upon all Americans. Apparently you agree with his Satanic statement? Or do you believe in fundamental American principles: a person's religion is never imposed on anyone else. Many extremists oppose that fundamental American principle. Do you?

[Adak]

Originally Posted by tw

America was founded on principles that religion is only between you and your god. Any church that enforces a Spanish Inquistion to enforce their beliefs would be Satanic.

Pope ordered Church doctrine be imposed in law upon all Americans. Apparently you agree with his Satanic statement? Or do you believe in fundamental American principles: a person's religion is never imposed on anyone else. Many extremists oppose that fundamental American principle. Do you?

No church is enforcing an Inquisition, Spanish or otherwise! The Pope never ordered Church doctrine be imposed in law on ANY Americans.

You know nothing about the Catholic Church, clearly.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

The Pope never ordered Church doctrine be imposed in law on ANY Americans.

When confronted by honesty, you would lie? That's a mortal sin! The Pope ordered Catholic doctrine to be instilled in American laws. Santorum agreed. So we also got rid of him.

How many wackos said Kennedy's separation of the Catholic Church from American government was wrong? It made him almost vomit? Extremist even advocate religious doctrine be imposed in laws. You cannot change reality by denying it.

Meanwhile the Pope has ordered lawmakers to impose Catholic doctine - their religion - on all Americans. Next is to order American laws changed to protect pedophile priests. After all, that is also defacto Catholic doctrine. When you deny it, might you cite at least one source other than Fox News or an extremist talk show host?

[infinite monkey]

Originally Posted by tw

When confronted by honesty, you would lie? That's a mortal sin! The Pope ordered Catholic doctrine to be instilled in American laws. Santorum agreed. So we also got rid of him.

How many wackos said Kennedy's separation of the Catholic Church from American government was wrong? It made him almost vomit? Extremist even advocate religious doctrine be imposed in the laws. You cannot change reality by denying it.

Not that it will educate you. Demonstrated is how much Limbaugh, et al have so subverted so many Americans. Brainwashing for some is that easy. Knowledge despite facts defines an ideologue. And why so many foolishly argue a 'liberal vs conservative' myth.

Meanwhile the Pope has ordered lawmakers to impose Catholic doctine - their religion - on all Americans.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by tw

When confronted by honesty, you would lie? That's a mortal sin! The Pope ordered Catholic doctrine to be instilled in American laws. Santorum agreed. So we also got rid of him.

Give me a link to where the Pope ordered Catholic doctrine by instilled in American laws. That's news to me, but I don't follow everything the Pope does.

Not knowledgeable about Santorum. He never interested me as a Presidential candidate.

How many wackos said Kennedy's separation of the Catholic Church from American government was wrong? It made him almost vomit? Extremist even advocate religious doctrine be imposed in laws. You cannot change reality by denying it.

First I can't quite nail down what reality you are in. Kennedy's religious beliefs are not a topic for this thread, in the run up to the 2012 election. I just don't believe it's relevant.

Meanwhile the Pope has ordered lawmakers to impose Catholic doctine - their religion - on all Americans. Next is to order American laws changed to protect pedophile priests. After all, that is also defacto Catholic doctrine. When you deny it, might you cite at least one source other than Fox News or an extremist talk show host?

Do you have some info or links to back up your argument? This is your assertion of truth, not mine.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

Give me a link to where ...

Everything you posted is without links. Everything you posted is recited from Rush Limbaugh, et al. You want others to do what you never do? Sources were provided. You ignored it because extremist talk show hosts downplayed reality? Santorum said ... (then you stopped listening).

Kennedy's religious beliefs are directly traceable to your ideology. As a result one even said he almost had to vomit. Because religion *should* be imposed on all Americas - according to that ideology. These are the extremists you promote. Why do you ignore what they say when convenient?

Do you also ignore that America has zero growth when Republicans are president? That Reagan raised taxes. That jobs did not recover until well into Reagan's second term. That the US Navy is larger than the next 13 countries combined (exposing a Ryan lie). That economic power is not created by Nimitz class carriers and B-1 bombers. That socialism and communism are different. That jobs are not created by money. That $0.55 trillion back then is over $1.3 trillion today. When Clinton left office, we were on the verge of a surplus. Then people you promote tried to get into a war with China, surrendered to the Taliban, and then wasted 5000 Americans and $3 trillion on a complete lie - Mission Accomplished. Therefore created record debts that will take at least a decade to pay off. Sticking Obama with the bills when Cheney said "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter".

This was a doozy:The July 2010 Dodd-Frank law created George Jr's 2007 recession and stock market crash. Only you posted that. How disconnected are you? Please, find that citation. Oh. You will provide facts and numbers? Instead, reality was invented as necessary. Dodd-Frank created George Jr's recession? How fast did you run away from that fiction?

What happens when the rich pay taxes (when America was then prosperous)? BigV posted the numbers. Tax cuts to the rich - debt increases 172%. Taxes restored; the rich pay their fair share (ie when Clinton was president) - debt decreases 27%. So what did you do? Ignore replies and numbers that exposed the Limbaugh lies you posted. BigV demonstrated how wrong you (and Limbaugh) are. As usual, when facts expose your lies, you run off to invent more lies - as any Tea Party extremist would do. No wonder they nominated a witch for the Senate.

You change topics when facts expose your myths. You paint with a broad brush. Invent fiction that only an extremist could believe. Even deny the Pope has called for Church doctrine to be imposed on all Americans. Lie to protect an ideology: a conclusion followed by searching for or inventing facts to justify it.

"Reagan proved that deficits don't matter" is why extremist conservatives in George Jr's administration massively increased debt, spending, wars, and recession. Same people you want back in power. Let's face it. You support those who said "We want America to fail." Or did you also forget that fact?

Perspective: Informed Americans see the world in terms of moderates vs wacko extremists. Wacko extremists see the world in terms of 'liberal vs conservative'. Then invent facts to justify brainwashing. And run away from any citation that shows how misguided they really are.

How funny. You, of all people, want a citation. Please stop with the comedy. Old jokes only get older.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by tw

Everything you posted is without links. Everything you posted is recited from Rush Limbaugh, et al. You want others to do what you never do? Sources were provided. You ignored it because extremist talk show hosts downplayed reality? Santorum said ... (then you stopped listening).

Santorum isn't in the running anymore. I didn't care for him when he was, and I don't care what you think of him, or what he thinks of anything, now.

Kennedy's religious beliefs are directly traceable to your ideology. As a result one even said he almost had to vomit. Because religion *should* be imposed on all Americas - according to that ideology. These are the extremists you promote. Why do you ignore what they say when convenient?

Nobody has said that religion SHOULD be imposed on Americans, that I know of. First, it would be against the Constitution (blatantly). Second, you'd have riots in the streets if that were begun.

Do you also ignore that America has zero growth when Republicans are president? That Reagan raised taxes. That jobs did not recover until well into Reagan's second term. That the US Navy is larger than the next 13 countries combined (exposing a Ryan lie). That economic power is not created by Nimitz class carriers and B-1 bombers. That socialism and communism are different. That jobs are not created by money. That $0.55 trillion back then is over $1.3 trillion today. When Clinton left office, we were on the verge of a surplus. Then people you promote tried to get into a war with China, surrendered to the Taliban, and then wasted 5000 Americans and $3 trillion on a complete lie - Mission Accomplished. Therefore created record debts that will take at least a decade to pay off. Sticking Obama with the bills when Cheney said "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter".

This was a doozy:The July 2010 Dodd-Frank law created George Jr's 2007 recession and stock market crash. Only you posted that. How disconnected are you? Please, find that citation. Oh. You will provide facts and numbers? Instead, reality was invented as necessary. Dodd-Frank created George Jr's recession? How fast did you run away from that fiction?

I don't CARE what Cheney said. Cheney isn't running for office, and won't be part of Romney's administration.

No, that was my error in naming the Dodd-Franks law. I had that law on my mind, at that time, but it's not the one.

What happens when the rich pay taxes (when America was then prosperous)? BigV posted the numbers. Tax cuts to the rich - debt increases 172%. Taxes restored; the rich pay their fair share (ie when Clinton was president) - debt decreases 27%. So what did you do? Ignore replies and numbers that exposed the Limbaugh lies you posted. BigV demonstrated how wrong you (and Limbaugh) are. As usual, when facts expose your lies, you run off to invent more lies - as any Tea Party extremist would do. No wonder they nominated a witch for the Senate.

I'm hardly a Tea party extremist! They are Conservatives, however, AND they pick up their trash after a rally -- try and get the liberals to do THAT.

You know you're lying about Reagan and taxes, and I've posted the facts from the gov't to point it out to you. You can't support your lies about that.

You change topics when facts expose your myths. You paint with a broad brush. Invent fiction that only an extremist could believe. Even deny the Pope has called for Church doctrine to be imposed on all Americans. Lie to protect an ideology: a conclusion followed by searching for or inventing facts to justify it.

I'm still waiting for the Pope's encyclical on that - but it isn't there. Another fib, eh?

"Reagan proved that deficits don't matter" is why extremist conservatives in George Jr's administration massively increased debt, spending, wars, and recession. Same people you want back in power. Let's face it. You support those who said "We want America to fail." Or did you also forget that fact?

Obsessed by Cheney are you? Here's a tip for you - he's been out of office for a few years now, and he won't be back.
I live in America! Why would I want it to fail? Have you lost your mind?

Perspective: Informed Americans see the world in terms of moderates vs wacko extremists. Wacko extremists see the world in terms of 'liberal vs conservative'. Then invent facts to justify brainwashing. And run away from any citation that shows how misguided they really are.

Now you're the expert on how other people see the world? < ROFL! >

How funny. You, of all people, want a citation. Please stop with the comedy. Old jokes only get older.

You can't make an assertion about a major proclamation from the Pope, repeatedly, and then not offer a link to it.

Not the Pope. Everything he proclaims is widely reported around the world. If it existed, I would have found it, easily.

Liberal jokes, make us all weep, when they become laws -- unless of course, it's a case of crony capitalism! But that's a problem for both parties, much to their shame. Bush Jr and Obama are both failures in this regard, and I would have to say Bush Jr. was the bigger failure in using crony capitalism, except for the Salendra scandal with Obama.

Actually, I don't listen to Limbaugh. He has good info and some insights, I know, but he constantly uses ad hominem attacks and smears, and thinks they're "entertaining". Or at least, OK. I won't put up with that.

You can't solve a problem with the country, by calling half of it all kinds of unsavory names, in public media.