The Real Mitt Romney

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Are you touting Germany as socialist, or non-socialist here?

Because they are far more socialist than the US, and are heavily invested in solar and wind power - about 20% of their total generation.

Or are you saying that their capitalistic success lets them tax their "job creators" enough to fund their socialism?

I'm saying that Germany is more socialist, but they have a fundamentally different government, and relationship of their people, to that government. For instance, they have little or no tax on their companies, who sell their products overseas, and bring that money back into Germany. In the US, we tax any funds like that, with the second highest corporate income tax, in the world.

That's why German products like BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and many other products, sell so well, around the world, BUT the jobs are kept in Germany to a large extent. American corporations can't do that, and it's a huge mistake. To even start to compete, we have to go offshore, and the money has to stay there, or be ridiculously taxed. (double taxed). Also, the gov't has a fundamental obligation to create jobs for it's citizens. I believe (but not sure), that it is in their constitution.

Their opinions of their gov't, are substantially different than ours. And I must say, we have had a HUGE number of absolute assholes in our legislature, over the years. Their cronyism and crass ability to exploit their position for huge monetary gain, just stinks to high heaven. If you or I did what they do, we'd be sent to prison (insider trading, just for one way they do it).

If the people want to go socialism, I have no problem with it. I don't believe it works well, but I KNOW you can't just grab some highly socialistic laws, and start shoving them down our throat, the way Obama has. You want to change to a national health care system, fine. I'm for it!

First, study what other countries have done, and let's get the best parts into our own, and leave out the parts that didn't work well. Second, do a pilot study in a state or region, and prove that it works. THEN, write up the federal laws, and enact it. Don't shove a 2,000+ page law at us, with no time to study it - or even READ it through, and say "we'll pass it now, and read it later".

That's bullshit!

We have lobbyists, unions, race baiters, bald face liars, and class haters, all well expressed in our gov't. What we don't have are statesmen, making wise decisions, in large numbers. The idea that the federal gov't would turn down something like the Keystone pipeline project, at a time when jobs are so badly needed, and fuel is up to $4++ a gallon (in CA), just drives me around the bend.

And is anybody talking about cutting our corporate tax rate so $$$ from overseas operations can come back to the US? Let us compete with other countries, more evenly, instead of having the $$$ taxed twice (once in the other country, and again when it returns to the US).

All you hear is:

Crickets.

And about how well Obama sounds when he's imitating Al Green, and all the other "your candidate is a jerk because...".
I want some good government out of our legislative branch, and we just haven't been getting it. And yeah, I believe socialism is demotivating for the people who have it, if it's overused, or set up in a stupid fashion.

I mean, every year we find out "Oops!, we have another 10,000 people who received some welfare benefit, who have been dead for at least a year", kind of stuff. And we will sue every state that wants to require a photo ID, when you vote. Because BY GOD!, we want those Zombies, to be represented by our fraudulent party!

And I want to get our medical drug costs down! No reason in hell why we should have to spend 2-10 times as much for drugs, than other countries, like Canada. And tax loopholes - oh don't get me started on tax loopholes. That's the most asinine example of lobby and political favoritism, that you'll ever live to see.

All these big corporations that all lined up to support Obama care -- and then immediately after it was passed, 98% of them lined up to get in their own exemption from it, which was built into the law, of course!



Actually, Canada is not a bad model to look at. They went progressive/liberal for many years, until it damn near bankrupted the country. Then they swung back and went largely conservative with a political party, and look at how well they're doing! Their dollar is worth more now, than ours are - and THAT is just for starters.

Unfortunately, our political party is also home to lots of less than desirable types, that give the whole conservative philosophy, a bad taste. That's a shame, because conservatism is not what you learned from Bush (one or two), or what the liberals try to frame it as.

As far as business went, Clinton ranks highest among recent Presidents, as a conservative (not counting Reagan, of course).

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Adak

If the people want to go socialism, I have no problem with it. I don't believe it works well, but I KNOW you can't just grab some highly socialistic laws, and start shoving them down our throat, the way Obama has. You want to change to a national health care system, fine. I'm for it!

First, study what other countries have done, and let's get the best parts into our own, and leave out the parts that didn't work well. Second, do a pilot study in a state or region, and prove that it works. THEN, write up the federal laws, and enact it. Don't shove a 2,000+ page law at us, with no time to study it - or even READ it through, and say "we'll pass it now, and read it later".

I think that's quite a fair point actually.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sure, it's logical and practical. It's also impossible in a society where the Drug, Insurance, and Medical Device industries, own so many politicians.
The ONLY way it can happen is the way it did, making huge concessions to those industries, then slowly chipping away at those concessions until the plan is the best it can be. In the mean time, although not the best, millions more have at least some coverage.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Sure, it's logical and practical. It's also impossible in a society where the Drug, Insurance, and Medical Device industries, own so many politicians.
The ONLY way it can happen is the way it did, making huge concessions to those industries, then slowly chipping away at those concessions until the plan is the best it can be. In the mean time, although not the best, millions more have at least some coverage.

The problem is, with our current stupidity of paying 2-10X what Canada pays for the very same drugs, you run the whole program into the red, and convince even more people, that the whole idea is a terrible one.

It doesn't have to be that way. There may be more expedient idea's for getting the cart of a National Health Plan moving, but when you're relying on horsepower, it's important to remember to put the horse BEFORE the cart, and not after it.

It isn't just WHAT you do, it's the order you do them in that's important, as well.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I think that's quite a fair point actually.

You don't have to sound SO surprised.

[Sheldonrs]

Originally Posted by Adak

...I mean, every year we find out "Oops!, we have another 10,000 people who received some welfare benefit, who have been dead for at least a year", kind of stuff. And we will sue every state that wants to require a photo ID, when you vote. Because BY GOD!, we want those Zombies, to be represented by our fraudulent party!
....

Yup, that would be bad. Luckily, as EVERY investigation has shown, it hasn't.

[Cyber Wolf]

One of the 47% Romney isn't concerned about...

http://news.yahoo.com/slammed-using-...XBhZ2U-;_ylv=3

Nerger said the reason she and her family - she is married with a daughter - must rely on food stamps is because her husband's carpentry business isn't profitable enough to support the family.

Meanwhile, Nerger must devote 12 hours every night to a dialysis treatment to combat her kidney disease, which she's struggled with since the age of 11. She's been on a kidney transplant list for five years and hopes that someday, after a successful transplant, she can become a working member of society. She would like to attend college to major in child psychology.

"There's just so much stigmatism put on people on food stamps. They're just some losers who don't want to work. That isn't the case in every situation," she said.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The stigmatizing comes from Reagan's myths of the welfare queen in the Caddy and furs, and the lazy Black Buck with the food stamps buying the best steaks in the market. It's been carped by the right ever since, even though it's been disproven repeatedly. Before then, reasonable people understood that giving a helping hand to needy people was a good thing.

Personal story.. In 1970 I got in a squeeze between sudden divorce and being forced out of work for five months by a strike of the shop union at Westinghouse. I was salaried but we honored their picket line for two weeks and when we went back were laid off for the duration. Westinghouse fought our collecting unemployment during the layoff.

To make a long story longer, I collected welfare and food stamps for three months until the unemployment finally kicked in. I even got double food stamps one month through a clerical error. At that time you got a voucher in the mail and took it to the bank where they would give you the actual stamps. When I tried to return the stamps to the welfare office they had no mechanism to retrieve them, so told me to keep them.

It was tough getting by on unemployment (paying two lawyers and all) but when I went back to work the state sent me a letter asking me to repay the welfare. I did that over a couple months and became square with the state, meaning I would be eligible to collect again should the need arise, but didn't have to repay the food stamps. I feel it's a good program, working the way it did.

Now I realize welfare's been a tool for several generations, to keep them ghetto niggers in line so they won't be raping the white women with their free time they have, since we won't give them jobs. This was planned by some, but mostly unintended consequences to most of the population. It's a bad situation and very very difficult to remedy now. It's also, with the help of Reagan's myths, easy lose sight of the fact that most people on welfare are not black, and not in northern cities, but in the south.

So part of the problem is racism, partly misinformation, and partly cussedness.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Sheldonrs

Yup, that would be bad. Luckily, as EVERY investigation has shown, it hasn't.

List your "investigations", because it's common in So. CA, and infamous in Nevada and Illinois.

Bottom line is, nearly EVERYONE has a valid photo ID. You need it to get a checking account, driver a car, travel out of the country, I need it when I withdraw cash from my bank, get a library or video store card, sometimes, even to cash a check.

And all those who don't have a valid photo ID, can get one from the state, for free.

So WHAT'S the *BIG PROBLEM* in showing it, when we vote?

Name another country where you vote, without showing an ID (either a card or a thumb/finger print, or both).

Not Mexico, not Canada! Here's the requirements for Canada:

Option 1
Show one original piece of identification with your photo, name and address. It must be issued by a government agency.

Example: driver's licence.


Option 2

Show two original pieces of authorized identification. Both pieces must have your name and one must also have your address.

Example: health card and hydro bill.

or

Option 3

Take an oath and have an elector who knows you vouch for you. This person must have authorized identification and be from the same polling division as you. This person can only vouch for one person.

Examples: a neighbour, your roommate.

WHY do we need NOTHING in order to vote? What possible reason could there be for that?

Voter F-R-A-U-D.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Adak

Name another country where you vote, without showing an ID (either a card or a thumb/finger print, or both).

England (can't talk for any other part of the UK).

You show your voting card. But that just has my name, address and voting number on it. I could easily use my sister's or my sister-in-law's or even my mother's voting card for all the interest which is shown in it. In fact I do know people who have voted for friends/ relatives/ housemates etc. It's illegal, but only in the same way it's fraud for me to use Mum's debit card - I've only ever done it when asked and with permission for a specific purpose.

[Griff]

I think the assumption of evil intent by each side in the voter ID argument is interesting. It is most likely true on both sides. Republicans do want to disenfranchise the poor who won't have photo ID. They think they can absorb the collateral damage of old timers whose drivers licenses are expired, because they will be known at their polling station and not challenged. My Dad, a GOP voter, was in that position, it took an entire Saturday and a trip to Dunmore to get him an ID because my county in PA does picture ID's for limited hours once a week on Thursdays. Not exactly helpful to someone who needs a ride. Two evil parties, we have them. This time Obama is closer to the center and less evil so I may vote for him. The big issue coming is attacking Iran, unfortunately Obama has been seduced by power so either way we're bombing.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Griff

I think the assumption of evil intent by each side in the voter ID argument is interesting. It is most likely true on both sides. Republicans do want to disenfranchise the poor who won't have photo ID. They think they can absorb the collateral damage of old timers whose drivers licenses are expired, because they will be known at their polling station and not challenged. My Dad, a GOP voter, was in that position, it took an entire Saturday and a trip to Dunmore to get him an ID because my county in PA does picture ID's for limited hours once a week on Thursdays. Not exactly helpful to someone who needs a ride. Two evil parties, we have them. This time Obama is closer to the center and less evil so I may vote for him. The big issue coming is attacking Iran, unfortunately Obama has been seduced by power so either way we're bombing.

Jump up into the Iran nuclear thread I started, please.

You're quite wrong about the Republicans not wanting everyone to vote, though. Voting is the right of every citizen, and the more who exercise that right, the more that right is likely to produce a better democracy. It would be a great shame if somehow, our voting percentage fell way off. Terrible precedent for a democracy, imo.

I don't know where Bruce lives, but in So CA, you need a photo ID for just about anything that involves a monetary transaction, without cash. You want to buy something with a DEBIT card (no less) at Fry's Electronics - you show your driver's license. You want a Blockbuster card, you show your driver's license, etc. You want to cash a check at a store, you show your driver's license. If the purchase amount is small, it may be waived, but most times, it's required.

Bought some tools awhile back in Sears. They wanted to see my driver's license, of course. Then they requested my SS number! I told them they could get it, but only if they were going to contribute to my SS account. The clerk had to call over her supervisor.

As far as welfare goes, I've seen both sides of it. No doubt it's useful and a good thing, but it's also massively abused. Free school lunch programs are just one example. In CA, it started out with just the needy getting free lunches. Over the years, the people running it have let it be known that they aren't going to check your income requirements. I don't know if they ever did that check, but if so, they have stopped doing it.

Now the percentage of kids getting a free lunch every day has soared to over 90% of the kids, in some schools. These aren't all poor kids - these are mostly kids who were encouraged to get enrolled with their parents, in the free school lunch program. And I've never seen a single student who was ON the free school lunch program, who was EVER taken off - for any reason.

My favorite however, was a spinster we worked with for many years. Our business made her a millionaire, (and then some), over a period of about 18 years.

After she reached "senior" age, she would ask me to drive her down to the community center, every two weeks or so, to pick up her bags of free food, for low income seniors. By then, she was a millionaire a few times over, with substantial income every month. How do I know? We did her tax returns.

Which is one of the big problems with most welfare programs. They have (typically, in the past), had *NO* incentive for progress to get the person back into the work force, and off the public dole. Quite the contrary. Welfare recipients are viewed as "job security", by those working for the program itself. It's a lot of "nod nod, wink wink, and once a worker, now a welfare recipient, by the power of my pen".

They're getting a bit better about the incentive to get them off welfare, but that's only for some programs - not most. Once you're on it, you stay on it.

That's why we can't get a national healthcare system that works, and that we can afford. WAY too much fraud and abuse from both doctors (medical workers), and patients abusing ("working") the system, to make it affordable.

I haven't seen Bruce's welfare links yet, but I look forward to seeing them. Thank you Bruce.

I have only one handle, for the forum, btw.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

I don't know where Bruce lives, but in So CA, you need a photo ID for just about anything that involves a monetary transaction, without cash. You want to buy something with a DEBIT card (no less) at Fry's Electronics - you show your driver's license. You want a Blockbuster card, you show your driver's license, etc. You want to cash a check at a store, you show your driver's license. If the purchase amount is small, it may be waived, but most times, it's required.

PA, the civilized rednecks.
Perhaps they require a license (photo ID) in your neighborhood because you're hard on the Mexican border, and of course they would have to make it a uniform policy.

I haven't seen Bruce's welfare links yet, but I look forward to seeing them. Thank you Bruce.

Say what? Who was your lackey last year?
I, unlike you, provided plenty of links for my claims about Reagan's welfare myths. If you have more questions you can damn well do your own research... or just keep spouting Karl Rove's bullshit.
I have no delusions about trying to sway you, your soul is lost. I'm posting to protect our gentle readers from your misinformation campaign.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Adak

Bottom line is, nearly EVERYONE has a valid photo ID.

Not true. I'm guessing you don't live in an large urban area?