"She", not "he", guys

[DanaC]

Slight side step, because my head's in the eighteenth-century today :P


I've taken this from wikipedia, because I havent the heart to go searching through texts:

In 18th century England, a "molly" referred to an effeminate usually homosexual male.[1][2] Mollies, and other third sex identities, were one precursor to the broader 'homosexual' identity of the 20th and 21st centuries.[3]

The most famous molly house was Mother Clap's open for two years from 1724-1726 in the Holborn area of London.

Patrons of Molly houses who dressed in women's clothing were called "Mollies", they would take on a female persona, have a female name, and affect feminine mannerisms and speech. Marriage ceremonies between a Mollie and his male lover were enacted to symbolise their partnership and commitment, and the role-play at times incorporated a ritualised giving birth.[4]

At the time, under the Buggery Act 1533, buggery was a capital offence in England, and court records of buggery trials of the period provide much of the evidence about molly houses.[5]

On 9 May 1726, three men (Gabriel Lawrence, William Griffin, and Thomas Wright) were hanged at Tyburn for buggery following a raid of Margaret Clap's molly house. Charles Hitchen, the Under City Marshal (and crime lord), was also convicted (in 1727) of attempted buggery at a Molly house

Two things strike me about this. One, is that gender performance has always been problematic for those whose sense of self did not conform strictly to the culturally constructed norms of the day. And second is that, whilst right now what is at stake is at worst violent assault and at best the experience (hopefully temporary) of shame described by Pam, the stakes have been much higher at other times and yet...those people still engaged in gender performance which put them at risk of utter ruination or capital sentence.

It has taken a very, very long time, for our culture(s) to accept something which it has always had within it. I hope, one day, discussions like this one will seem as odd to contemporaries as discussions on women's wandering wombs, and the genetic inferiority of the black man do to us now. Both of which, incidentally, had scientific 'facts' to give them weight.

[henry quirk]

"fuck you, I don't care about you, I'll do whatever I want".

Certainly, that's one possible interpretation.

Just not the only one.

I'm sure when Norton demanded to be called 'emperor', some refused for the reason you cite above. Others, I'm sure, refused to call Norton 'emperor' because, in fact, he was not an emperor.

#

"I really, really don't see gender in the same way you do, henry."

And we don't have to.

Since this is the closest I'm gonna get to a 'let's agree to disagree', I'll just say: thanks, Dana.

#

"He made this thread to make sure everyone knew that he did it just to be an enormous jerk."

That's one interpretation. Another is, it irks me when folks demand I toss away what's real in favor of not-real.

#

"I hope that answered your question."

You did. Thank you for the civility. Your post raises other questions for me, but I'll save those for a later time.

[BrianR]

Originally Posted by DanaC

And second is that, whilst right now what is at stake is at worst violent assault and at best the experience (hopefully temporary) of shame described by Pam, the stakes have been much higher at other times and yet...those people still engaged in gender performance which put them at risk of utter ruination or capital sentence.

Dana, I hate to correct again, but violent assault is NOT the worst.

Being dead is worse than being beaten.

Hundreds of us are murdered every year. Less than half are prosecuted. In the US, the most popular defense is the trans panic defense. Despite it's weak legal standing, it has been advanced in many of the cases involving murder of a trans person.

There have been several high profile cases in the last ten years, most notably the Gwen Araujo murder trial.

Most of the murders are never reported in the news and if they are, they get scant mention of any facts other than the trans-identity of the victim. Salacious information sells more advertising and garners more views than plain old information I guess. But then the news media almost inevitably get the gender wrong and refer to us as our birth gender and, if known, birth name. Even if the person's name had been legally changed. We just don't get no respect in major media outlets.

Even in the best of the options, shame is also a negative event. No one should be ashamed of who they are. You certainly are not. No one really is. Except us. And we are only ashamed until we learn to NOT be ashamed. And that process would be much faster and less traumatic if everyone else would just get over themselves and accept us for who we are and not what they think we are.

{off soapbox for now}

Pam