Guns don't kill people ....

[Urbane Guerrilla]

If they don't like genocides, the nation won't ask for gun control.

Joe Klein, Time magazine, wrote the current issue's cover story, Why Guns Won. Mr. Klein is the last person on Earth who ought to be writing about guns, for he is a giant statist and a gunbanner of many decades' standing. He's never been aware that a disarmed populace is necessary to a genocide, for otherwise that mass crime becomes impossible to commit.

Since I have some idea of the position he'll take, in defiance of the repeated Lott studies among others, I doubt I'll read the article.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

If they don't like genocides, the nation won't ask for gun control.

Huh? Say what?

Do you even know what the word "genocide" means? I ask, because you use it so freely and so improperly. You should double check your understanding. Reading what you actually *write* in situations like this make you even harder to understand than usual.

Thank you BigV.

Given the vast weapon technologies now available including everyone's fav - WMD's - there is no way a group targeted for genocide or even just collateral damage can defend itself against a powerful government. Or even a not so powerful one.

But feel free to acquire all the rocket launchers and tanks you can get your grubby hands on.

Here come the helicopter -- second time today
Everybody scatters and hopes it goes away
How many kids they've murdered only God can say
If I had a rocket launcher...I'd make somebody pay.

I don't believe in guarded borders and I don't believe in hate
I don't believe in generals or their stinking torture states
And when I talk with the survivors of things too sickening to relate
If I had a rocket launcher...I would retaliate.

On the Rio Lacantun one hundred thousand wait
To fall down from starvation -- or some less humane fate.
Cry for Guatemala, with a corpse in every gate
If I had a rocket launcher...I would not hesitate.

I want to raise every voice -- at least I've got to try.
Every time I think about it water rises to my eyes.
Situation desperate echoes of the victims cry
If I had a rocket launcher...some sonofabitch would die

- Bruce Cockburn

[Stormieweather]

Close to home - 15yr old shot

This boy is a friend of my D16, they go to school together and he has been to my home. They're all my daughter's friends, actually.

The story I got from Michael Owens (my daughter's boyfriend and who was interviewed in the above article) was that a girl, another friend, stole the loaded gun from an unlocked car. She, Ryan, and another teen were playing with it and had actually removed the clip. But, being stupid kids, they didn't know there was still a bullet chambered. She pointed the gun at Ryan and he tried to knock her hand away, causing it to go off. The hollow point entered through his mouth and blew the side of his face off. So he's in ICU and stable, but will require extensive reconstructive surgery.

From what I understand, the girl will be charged with something (probably waiting to see if Ryan lives) as will the owner of the loaded gun left in an unlocked car.

All the kids involved in the incident as well as friends are very sobered and saddened.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

... She, Ryan, and another teen were playing with it and had actually removed the clip. But, being stupid kids, they didn't know there was still a bullet chambered.

Not stupid, uneducated. If they had been acclimated to proper gun safety it probably wouldn't have happened.

[dmg1969]

Exactly, Bruce. I was raised around guns and taught to respect them. When I went to a gun shop recently to look for a new gun, the shop owner commented that it was obvious to him that I grew up around guns. I asked him how. He said how I handled the gun...not putting my finger on the trigger, pointing it away from people, checking that it was unloaded after he handed it to me even though I had just seen him clear it. Some people were just not taught not to play with guns and they pay the price.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

Yep, get rid of guns and everything will be just fine. Then, all I have to worry about is someone breaking into my house or approaching me on the street with...a knife, a sword, a golf club, a baseball bat, a 2x4 with nails embedded, a vicious dog, their fists, etc. None of those can be used to kill me. And luckily, I will have my hands and maybe some keys to defend myself. I noticed that nobody (at least in this thread) mentioned a recent spree killing in China using.....wait for it....a knife.

I'll take my chances against a knife, a sword, a golf club, a baseball bat, a 2x4 with nails embedded, a vicious dog, fists rather than a gun, how about you?

Originally Posted by dmg1969

One could argue that, had someone been carry a legally concealed weapon, they could have mitigated the damage the nut in CO. was causing.

One could argue that the damage could have been mitigated if the guy hadn't had a gun. The damage would have been mitigated if he'd only had a knife, a sword, a golf club, a baseball bat, a 2x4 with nails embedded, a vicious dog, or his fists.

Originally Posted by dmg1969

Exactly, Bruce. I was raised around guns and taught to respect them. When I went to a gun shop recently to look for a new gun, the shop owner commented that it was obvious to him that I grew up around guns. I asked him how. He said how I handled the gun...not putting my finger on the trigger, pointing it away from people, checking that it was unloaded after he handed it to me even though I had just seen him clear it. Some people were just not taught not to play with guns and they pay the price.

Then:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

How about this proposal: anyone can have any kind and number of guns they want, but if your first trial determines that someone is negligent or criminal, they are immediately executed. No appeals. Since people kill people, and all.

[dmg1969]

I'll take my chances against a knife, a sword, a golf club, a baseball bat, a 2x4 with nails embedded, a vicious dog, fists rather than a gun, how about you?

That is entirely up to you, Spexxvet. I'll keep my guns to defend myself and my family, thank you.

One could argue that the damage could have been mitigated if the guy hadn't had a gun. The damage would have been mitigated if he'd only had a knife, a sword, a golf club, a baseball bat, a 2x4 with nails embedded, a vicious dog, or his fists.

We can play this game all day. One could argue that the guy could have killed even more people if had opened the door and started chucking in molotav cocktails. The bottom line is that the theater owners had posted signs stating guns are not allowed. As a result, nobody there was carrying their own concealed weapon and could stop the guy. As for those signs, it is not illegal for you to ignore them. It is simply a matter of breaking the company's policy, not a law. If they were to find out that you were carrying a concealed (legal) handgun (which they shouldn't if it is CONCEALED), they can only ask you to leave. If you do so without arguing, etc...you are NOT breaking any laws. Criminals know that a gun free zone equates to a target rich environment.

As for the last part...are you saying that, if you own a gun and use it to kill someone (illegally of course, not self defense), you should be executed immediately? What about if I use a knife? Dead is dead, right? As for negligence, what if I hit someone with my car and kill them? Dead is dead, right? Should I be immediately executed for that as well? It's an illogical argument.

You won't change my mind and I know I won't change yours. but that's what is so great about this country.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

As for those signs, it is not illegal for you to ignore them. It is simply a matter of breaking the company's policy, not a law. If they were to find out that you were carrying a concealed (legal) handgun (which they shouldn't if it is CONCEALED), they can only ask you to leave. If you do so without arguing, etc...you are NOT breaking any laws..

Is that true? I'm not so sure. If you walk past a "no tresspassing" sign, do you get a second verbal warning before you can be arrested for tresspassing? No.

If a private property has a sign that says in effect "anyone carrying a gun is tresspassing," then why do they get a second warning? Tresspassing is about entering a private property without permission, and in the gun case, a person carrying a gun does not have permission.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

I'll take my chances against a knife, a sword, a golf club, a baseball bat, a 2x4 with nails embedded, a vicious dog, fists rather than a gun, how about you?

That is entirely up to you, Spexxvet. I'll keep my guns to defend myself and my family, thank you.

Fine, you have your gun. Do you want to protect yourself against someone with a knife, a sword, a golf club, a baseball bat, a 2x4 with nails embedded, a vicious dog, fists, or someone with a gun? Please don't be evasive.