The proper role and scope of government

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Griff

I obviously disagree. I drink raw milk and consume homemade yogurt and cheese made from it daily. I do not however buy it from a dairy using the same unsanitary practices as pasteurized homogenized producers. Raw milk cheeses are very popular in France, a place where people actually like actual food. Libertarianism is about taking personal responsibility rather than passing responsibility off on the corporate/government syndicate that controls much of our food production.

One round of cheddar right out of the cellar and the refrigerator stocked with raw milk, homegrown/made eggs, apple sauce, yogurt, cheese and local turkey.

(The issue in this specific case is milk; not cheese, not eggs, not other)

Prey tell, how does the consumer take responsibility for the quality of milk they purchase ?

The farmer in Pennsylvania that produced this batch of tainted raw milk was devastated,
wrote a letter of apology to his customers, and offered a refund on the milk they had purchased.
Maybe this farmer took responsibility, and may end up losing his business.

..Still 40+ other people became ill in PA and surrounding states in the first round of infections.
Camplylobacter is infectious (diarrhea) so there well could be a others.
Do you propose those all those primary and secondary infections also take responsibility onto themselves ?

I have absolutely no issue with you (or anyone) disagreeing with me on self-responsibility for themself (only).
I do have issue with it when it can not extend far enough to protect others.
.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Prey tell, how does the consumer take responsibility for the quality of milk they purchase ? Purchase it from a farmer whose operation you can inspect and take your chances.

The farmer in Pennsylvania that produced this batch of tainted raw milk was devastated,
wrote a letter of apology to his customers, and offered a refund on the milk they had purchased.
Maybe this farmer took responsibility, and may end up losing his business. His choice which he has paid for.

..Still 40+ other people became ill in PA and surrounding states in the first round of infections.
Camplylobacter is infectious (diarrhea) so there well could be a others.
Do you propose those all those primary and secondary infections also take responsibility onto themselves ? The primary infections already have. Any secondary infections would only be the result of failure to take universal precautions.

I have absolutely no issue with you (or anyone) disagreeing with me on self-responsibility for themself (only). So you agree that raw milk should be available to those of us who prefer it?
I do have issue with it when it can not extend far enough to protect others. ... or not.
.

Massive outbreak of antimicrobial-resistant salmonellosis traced to pasteurized milk.
Ryan CA, Nickels MK, Hargrett-Bean NT, Potter ME, Endo T, Mayer L, Langkop CW, Gibson C, McDonald RC, Kenney RT, et al.
Source

Division of Bacterial Diseases, Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta, GA 30333.
Abstract

Two waves of antimicrobial-resistant Salmonella typhimurium infections in Illinois totaling over 16 000 culture-confirmed cases were traced to two brands of pasteurized 2% milk produced by a single dairy plant. Salmonellosis was associated with taking antimicrobials before onset of illness. Two surveys to determine the number of persons who were actually affected yielded estimates of 168 791 and 197 581 persons, making this the largest outbreak of salmonellosis ever identified in the United States. The epidemic strain was easily identified because it had a rare antimicrobial resistance pattern and a highly unusual plasmid profile; study of stored isolates showed it had caused clusters of salmonellosis during the previous ten months that may have been related to the same plant, suggesting that the strain had persisted in the plant and repeatedly contaminated milk after pasteurization.

PMID:
3316720
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Maybe we should just ban pasteurized milk as well?
I understand your concern, but you are attacking people's life choices. Some of us are not excited by the idea of a supposedly risk free world bought by a simple exchange of personal liberty/choice. To me, it is very much the same as the War on Terror, there is always a cost for a nominal increase in safety. In this case, we create a (n awful tasting) biological blank slate which, given opportunity, salmonella easily inhabits. This kind of stuff is why rural America votes Republican, despite Democratic protestations that it is against their interests. The left does not understand what other people value or simply dismiss those values as not rational.

[Griff]

or I could be completely off base.

[Lamplighter]

There are two key phrases being overlooked in the above report summary:
"a single dairy plant" and "the strain had persisted in the plant
and repeatedly contaminated milk after pasteurization"

Generally, I would suggest the "after" means "after", not "despite" or "resistant to" pasteurization.
A follow up of that report would be interesting to see if they identified a specific source or procedure that failed.

I quibble with that idea of secondary infections would be due to "failure of universal precautions".
Universal precautions (to me) are hospital procedures.
In the "raw milk" story, such infections could be family members, school mates, etc. and occur before the "primaries" are apparent.

I frown on, but would not prohibit, a family from milking their own goats, cows, etc
for exclusive use of their own family because I assume parents will look
to the best interests of their own children.

But a business has other motivations and selling such a product risks the spread of disease into the public,
even more so if one is advocating NO government oversight such as inspections, testing, etc.

[Griff]

I didn't over look that a single dairy plant had 16,000 proven and between 168,791 and 197,581 actual cases, much as you didn't overlook that this single farm caused 40+cases. Increased scale/consolidation is one of those unintended consequences which advocates of regulation tend to ignore. I also didn't ignore that this occurred after pasteurization much as meat can easily be contaminated after being radiated. The once sterile food gives a false idea of security leading to less care in final packaging.

Universal precautions are SOP in schools and day cares.

Even you admit that the farm in question is essentially out of business, so the profit over people line of thought is nonsense. Small farms (which are regulated btw) are not like Cargil they can't just switch plants when things go bad. I never said no oversight, but we could argue about the best way to do that when I'm not so tired.

I frown on feel good bans that limit what others can do.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Griff

<snip>I frown on feel good bans that limit what others can do.

Agreed... Peace